Pet aggro changes not *that* awful... I think. Maybe.

So you used your full pet burn, with Virulent Talon, which generates especially much aggro due to it's nature (46K nuke per proc) on a 15 minute cooldown and argue that "pet aggro is fine"?

You didn't read the entire post ? It took me 3 attempts to make that twitch video in the first 3 attempts i didn't use any burns except the twincast rk iii spell and I then nuked as my first action and did not take aggro without the buff . I never said the aggro was where it should be it just doesn't seem as bad as - "Remove mages from the game"

There are many examples in EQ of 3 mob pulls being dangerous enough to wipe groups.

I'm not sure how we got from there to one class feeling entitled to split or kill mobs 3 at a time because they self-identify as a "solo class".

In similar context:

One could use this to justify Warriors being entitled to kill 4 mobs at a time (or whatever any other class can accomplish, plus one)

But such would be absurd.

I imagine the next patch they will be increasing the amount of hate on all pet heals instead of fixing the provocative demeanor buff and our RS pets now. But that is my skepticism talking...

There are also many examples of 1 mob killing entire raids. But I will agree that if a group of competent people is killed by a specific set of of mobs, a solo class of equal competency and gear should not be able to kill that same set molo.

You should not be able to create a Heroic Mage and automatically be entitled to molo 3 yellow cons. I agree that is absurd.

It is my opinion that a mage should however be able handle 2 mobs molo,with the level of mob dependent on the quality and gear of the mage. I believe this because we have been given the tools to do so. The main pet on one, servant on the other, with the realization that Servant is supposed to be resource intensive, and this is not extremely efficient.

I feel this handling of mobs is akin to other cc methods, like rooting, snaring etc. Where there are mobs there are mobs that may be immune to these effects, we have mobs that can chew through our servants, and if they ever really wanted to, they could similarly implement that PoWar anti pet code.

Given that we can handle 2 mobs, the occasional handling of additional mob should not be impossible, but again extremely challenging. A seasoned mage does have access to tools which will allow for this, but again these should be a "throw the sink" situations.

Actually, I don't know if I would have any issue with a molo Warrior being able to tank 2+ mobs without issue all day with only a merc to assist him. In this case he is limited by his endurance and the merc to either heal or dps. The concern would be if he was able to efficiently tank and kill the mobs without heals but a dps merc, or dps it down himself with a heal merc.

When you say that you were successful pet tanking without ganking aggro, what type of DPS were you putting out? Did you have others in group with you? Were they melee? Was your pet able to keep aggro over the melee?

See the issue is, I can use my pet to tank stuff but I can't full on DPS or I'll gank aggro, I can't have my melee friends in group and expect my pet to tank for them even with the new buff on, dual aggro swords and an air pet out.The pet won't even hold aggro for 4 seconds before it's gone never to come back.

Those questions are more geared towards the OP.

As to the Warrior who got on his Mage and blew everything but fortify, come on now..You cast more heals then you did nukes..And you're saying aggro is fine? Skewing data is so awesome, no?

I didn't do that to prove aggro was fine I said in many posts what I think about aggro that video was in reply to someone over exaggerating saying moloing 2 yellow cons without servants as cc was impossible and it isn't.

I also was intentionally trying to not cast a lot of nukes trying to get aggro without the buff just to test out the waters so to speak .

There was no skewing data .. To do that you have to intentionally be doing something wrong while saying something is perfectly fine and dandy . While also hiding data nothing was hidden.

Instead of jumping into omg lets kill the tank mode why don't you read everything before you jump to conclusions. Basically that whole conversation was silly and taken completely out of context I was straight face tanking 2 yellow cons with an earth pet on an inexperienced mage in mostly 3 year old gear .

When I solo/molo I run Fickle- Spear- Spear- Spear with Force AA when it refreshes. I realize that most magicians at the higher end like us don't use Fickle and they just roll with straight Spears. I realize Fickle at its base is less damage than a Spear. I realize that it might take me 5-10 more seconds to kill a mob using Fickle than just going straight Spears.

I also realize that using Fickle I have never pulled aggro off of a main pet. I also realize that I have adapted and changed my play style and utilized what the game gives me. I also realize I could care less if someone kills a mob five seconds earlier than me because they are using nothing but Spears. I would rather take a few extra seconds to kill a mob and not worry about pulling aggro, than going all out with Spears and then complaining to others that I cannot pew-pew-pew without consequence.

Obviously cannot use rains anymore with Remorseless aggro the way it is. Obviously cannot do anything to the second mob besides Remorseless. I even casted AA Malo on the second mob once, and could not shake aggro off it. Yes AA Malo caused so much aggro on me that multiple Remorseless could not pull it back to them. So I just chained Remorseless on the second mob while casting non stop DD spells on first mob Earth pet was on. And when I say non stop casting DD spells, I do mean non stop outside of switching to cast Remorseless on mob #2.

I also always have Chaotic Benevolence up when I molo. Yes the heal on it crits for maybe 18-19k tops. Yeah that is nothing. But I find that a couple heals on Remorseless lets me do what I can do. I know some high end magicians scoff at Chaotic Benevolence because it doesn't heal for 90k. That is fine. I figure now that stacking issues for it is in the past with Fire form, it seems silly to not have it up. Every little bit helps I find...

I will add some caveats to the above...

I was not pulling aggro under normal circumstances, as in no burn stuff going. Using Twincast I had to wait until the mob was around 70% or so before I could cast and use it. I guess I am smart enough to realize that casting Twincast on a mob at 100 with my three spears is going to pull pull aggro on me and make it hard for my pet to pull it back off. Situational awareness.

There was a time or two when I had to not cast for a second. I casted Thaumatise, clicked some rods, casted Aegis AA, etc. But there was never a moment when I just stood there for six seconds doing nothing, waiting for my aggro to drop so I could cast a DD spell and not worry about pulling aggro.

Interesting, I've had very different results. I give my pet about 10 seconds, before I start nuking and I still come away with aggro. I'm not even thinking about cycling discs other then heart of stone.

Are you gearing your pets up ?

No. Outside of two aggro swords.

Two mobs Inc. Regular pet on one. Switch to other, cast Remorseless. Back on first, AA Malo, Force, Fickle, Spear. By that time Remorseless is refresh, so back on second and cast Remorseless. Back on first and do my weave until Remorseless refreshes, then switch to second and rinse/repeat.

Can talk to me in game if you want. I was going to run another Health partisan either today or tomorrow depending on if baby lets me. She is teething now :/

I think I just will have to lower my expectations of my DPS when pet tanking. I'm really hoping they just fix the amount of hate a pet generates from this buff and increase it by at least 35%+.

Currently there is no use for a pet tank while melee characters are around as the pet cannot tank, so even if I fix my issue and lower my dps, melee groups will still be a pita.

I'm going to try some rune swords and see if that helps out any, not that we should need rune weapons =/.

Yeah. Cause using Spear x3 and a Bolt results in 80k DPS whereas Fickle and Spear x3 results in 8k DPS. Lowered expectations FTW.

Or...

It is not lowering expectations, but understanding what you have to do to be successful. And if it means taking five extra seconds per mob to eliminate stress and headache, so be it.

True story- the major pet mitigation patch happens I think summer 2014. I go see a named up and kill it. I had to use pet heal around five times, and had to use Aegis when it refreshes. But I won. Another mage on server in "high end guild with high end gear and skill" went to kill same named. Died twice. Asked me what I did, told him I used pet heal and Aegis. He said "Pet heal is stupid, I am going to burn named down". Promptly died another three times attempting it.

Go figure. Some players will just not adapt and change to be successful.

It's 100% lowering my DPS expectations in solo/molo content. Doesn't really matter what way you word it, you're using a less then optimal setup to keep aggro in check, period.

As for your 2014 story, that sounds like a Mage who felt entitled. Kind of like your post regarding being able to split mobs and such. We are not pullers, I expect if I run into 3 mobs to tank and spank or use an FD pot because more then likely they aren't going to be split.

As for being situationally aware or successful I'd say I'm set on that, more so then most others I might add .

Aggro changes aside (I fully agree they need to adjust the buff to recreate the hate values previously), what you said above highlights a bit of a longstanding issue with pets and tanking, imo. Ignoring Silent Casting, should you be able to face melt mobs and pay little to no attention to the pet doing the tanking, honestly, from a balance perspective?

Most tanks I saw chime into the pet debate during all the drama had no issues with pets being very viable group level tanks. What they objected to was the pet tank requiring almost no attention whatsoever to function like it did, while the Mage could absolutely go to town nuking and have the best of both worlds.

Though I absolutely am on the side of fixing the buff to get pet aggro back where it was before, taking a (small) dps hit to control your aggro while your pet tanks doesn't seem particularly onerous, and your description of it being an unacceptable situation is somewhat telling of the expectation, that to some readers is a little unreasonable. A warrior can't full offense and full defense at the same time (mostly), why should a pet class be able to?

Warriors aren't an offensive class, also comparing a Warrior to a Mage is fail logic as soon as you start it.

We are not Warriors, they are not Mages. This is an RPG and each class has their own niche.

Also I wouldn't call cycling through a weave with no discs or mods rolling, melting faces...No other class has to adjust their lineup like a Mage would in this situation.

As for paying little attention to my pet, I still have to cycle heals and Aegis, maybe hit a few other things, so to say we pay little to no attention to our pets is a bit of a hyperbole.

Mainly I was talking about during all the pet changes a few years ago, pre nerf, when pet mitigation was off in it's own universe. Not saying that's the case now.

And no, comparing classes that are functionally doing the same thing is not unreasonable or "fail logic", as long as we don't read too much into it, and that we're not expecting that the balance will ever be "equal", because it never will be. Comparing a Paladin healing to a cleric healing isn't completely worthless just because one class can fill additional roles and the other can't; we more diverse classes (sk being one) just need to be careful in our expectations.

Just because a Mage pet can tank, doesn't mean they should be limited because another class who tanks can't do something. That logic I'm sorry to say, is just ridiculous.

Because a Mage pet can tank, doesn't make the Mage and a Tank similar in any other facet. Magicians were meant to do both, since idk..The game started?

Warriors have ALWAYS been a meat shield, that is their niche, they can take hits better then ANYTHING in the game, including pets. ( Yes we did have a period when maybe a pet was front loaded better, but we are not there anymore, Warriors are easily kings of mitigation and avoidance when discing )

My issue currently is that Provocative Demeanor is under powered and needs a boost. We all agree with this. Now if you look at my post I don't say it's unreasonable for me to have to change my lineup, only that I will have to lower my DPS expectations, I also mention that pets currently are useless as a tank in any type of melee group as just auto attack ganks aggro..

I want to make this clear though..Comparing any class to another is a mistake and only used to try to swing an argument in ones direction because they can't bring actual factual evidence why something should be changed.

Saying a Mage shouldn't be able to do this because a Warrior can't is ridiculous when we're talking about an RPG..I don't expect to be able to rune like an Enchanter, sneak around like a Rogue, slow like ( insert slow class ). When you compare in the way you guys do ( saying you guys because it's generally a tank thing ) you're acting entitled. Saying class X can tank so class Y shouldn't be able to do DPS and tank is just immature logic, specially when class X's abilities center around tanking and are much more extensive.. Classes aren't cookie cutter for a reason. I doubt you'd still be playing EQ if they were.

We're in agreement about Provocative and that it was probably just a mistake that needs retuning.

But....sorry, it's not unreasonable for classes that fill multiple roles to do those roles less well or have some kind of tradeoff for switching roles. In other RPG type games quite often when switching a toon's "job" their stats, abilities and stuff change and it's not all that uncommon. That's all I'm saying.

But that's just it, we do have trade off's..The best Magician going against the best Wizard will come up short..DPS/ Total wise.

An Earth pet vs a Warrior using all his discs will fall short as well, not only will they fall short but they aren't able to react even close to how a Warrior reacts, same with Paladin and SK's. The abilties you guys have to handle aggro management isn't even comparable to a pet now. PC's are SO much stronger in EVERY way.

To say we don't have trade offs is a bit misleading, we certainly do..I'm not saying we can't pet tank anything, we are "decent" default tanks..Not saying we can't do some nice damage, but we aren't going to beat a Wizard who knows their .

I just think the people who wish to argue tank vs Mage don't understand what a Magician is.