Pally Vs SK in (Velious, Luclin, PoP)

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Abyssmul, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. Darkhain Elder

    Early xpac, once again, lifetap and dots do almost no impact on the dps, and you can't keep casting them because of mana issues. Later on, yes they will outdps Pally.

    No SK can come near the Pally dps (using undead DD) or Holy Forge or later undead AA.
  2. Loze Elder

    Isn't that what we're talking about here? The first couple of expansions?

    Then from PoP to Gates, you're lucky to make a parse, after that, you're nowhere near the top, but you'll make top 10 on most boss fights.

    Paladins get to the top 10 on an undead. Sometimes.
  3. Wulfhere Augur

    No not really. SK and Paladin have the exact same undead DD spells through to Omens of War.

    Holyforge arrives in Velious and has been under performing for over a decade.

    Instrument of Nife arrives in Luclin and gives paladins a decent undead weapon imbue proc, which does help to close the gap vs undead.
    Loze likes this.
  4. Healiez Augur

    This is false, ESPECIALLY later on. Harm touch alone will do as much as 3-4 big slays. Combine that with the SK's vastly superior spell dps and you get the idea.

    Even in kunark, if they blow their entire mana bar they will do about 3000 more damage from lifetaps alone. Not sure how that is "no impact on dps". If they have their disc up you need to double that.

    in PoP, GoD, and omens, in my dps set I could usually top 10 most fights as an SK, top 5 if I had harmtouch and unholy aura up. It does start to fall off pretty substantially with each expansion after PoP, but it stays competitive for a while.

    One of the best geared paladins in my guild on selo's constantly would gripe about how on undead mobs, even with holyforge, he only hoped match an SK's DPS..... On an undead mob..... which are their "specialty". This was in luclin/PoP era.
  5. Ayoheee Augur

    Paladins can do the exact same thing
  6. Darkhain Elder

    No, no, no and no.

    Once, again SK can do good burst once in a while (early xpac), they can't maintain it, they don't have the mana for it, nor the mana regen.

    If your SK is on the top5/10, then your guild in PoP/GoD, then your guild is trash, sorry.

    SK can't out dps a pally on undead, once again, must compare to a terrible pally.

    Now, group wise Pally vs SK dps, IS THE SAME, more and less. Sk and Pally needs mana to keep aggro at this stage. Both have their utilities, while imo Pally are better, but it's personal preferences. Later pally gets better heals and utilities, while SK get increased dps and better lifetaps (for self healing).

    Raid wise, SK and Pally are both the same as tanking goes, untill Pally gets really good fast healing and curing abilities, SK will lack a bit behind, but not that much, he'll get better few xpac later. But Pally have better raid utilities compared to SK, fastest root, curing, gheals, early steady ae aggro (via heal/defensive heals procs), Sk will really good AE snap taunt tho later, both can manage ae aggro fine. But both can later MT any boss, if geared enough.
  7. Fanelien New Member

    You had bad DPS class players then. Wizards can pull agro off anything if they're just burning, and monks are close behind. Knight tank ain't a licence to unload no matter what you think about your agro.
  8. Fluid Augur

    I'm currently refreshing my SK experience on a TLP so take what I say with a grain of salt. Life stealing in general, not just life tap, makes the SK a bit stronger. SK gets Vampiric Embrace<Shroud of Death> in addition to Life Tap. Vampiric embrace has been toned down a bit. I think it still works on riposte which is an effective bonus in the right situations. The Clinging Darkness line is a so so effective snare. I think you mentioned teaming with Shaman who IIRC don't have an effective snare. It isn't a problem for hunting undead as they fight to the death, just pretty effective for stopping runners.

    At least in the run up to the boss fight, SK is a little more hands off. I don't think you should just consider the MOB DPS pool as the only criteria. You have to buckets of life you have to consider, yours and the MOB's. What the SK may lack in DPS, they make up for in adding to your life bucket. It give the Shaman a chance to switch targets w/o the team wiping.

    There's some other 'slight mischief' you can get into. The pet against high level bosses is little more then a speed bump. It is fun to give it a weapon that processes and turn off taunt so it survives until your group starts taking heavy AoE spell hits. Overall, SK is just a bit more interesting to run.
  9. Rcbauer Augur

  10. HoodenShuklak Augur

    Pally definitely can lay down DPS in specific situations. It's so niche though... so if you're interested in general DPS then SK is, easily, the choice to make. They aren't cornered into undead only like pallies are. Not only that, but Pallies with DA are often immune on raid fights so they aren't even thinking about parsing.
  11. Wulfhere Augur

    Paladin Holyforge Discipline has almost no value on TLP servers. Without any AA or combat effects, the melee boosts provided are very marginal, typically adding zero slays.

    Holyforge Discipline
    1: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 200%
    2: Increase Chance to Crippling Blow by 20%
    3: Increase Chance to Slay Undead by 1.4% with 1700 Damage Mod

    Typical 5 minute HF example:
    Combined: Verix Kylox`s remains: -- DMG: 19352 -- DPS: 49 -- Scaled: 49 -- Slash: 14506 -- DirDmg: 2085 -- Environmental: 1530 -- Bash: 1231 -- % dmg as normal: 93.3% -- % dmg as critical: 5.7% -- Non-crit rate: 98.4% -- crit rate: 1.3% -- crippling rate: 0.3% -- Attempts: 389 -- Hits: 305 -- Missed: 77 -- Defended: 7 -- Accuracy: 79.8% -- Avg Hit: 63 -- Max hit: 401 -- DMG to PC: 13195

    [Fri Oct 30 18:17:31 2020] You bash Verix Kylox`s remains for 204 points of damage. (Crippling Blow)
    [Fri Oct 30 18:17:46 2020] You slash Verix Kylox`s remains for 401 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Fri Oct 30 18:18:39 2020] You slash Verix Kylox`s remains for 215 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Fri Oct 30 18:19:13 2020] You slash Verix Kylox`s remains for 304 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Fri Oct 30 18:21:25 2020] You slash Verix Kylox`s remains for 180 points of damage. (Critical)

    Holyforge is basically worthless on TLP with it's current tuning. It needs some love from the Devs.
  12. WaitingforMoreEQ Waitingforvanillawow

    OP is asking a trick question. The correct answer is Ranger. Ranger/Shaman can Duo anything SK/Sham can and more and significantly faster.
    Boze and Wulfhere like this.
  13. FranktheBank Augur

    Sk is better at everything except casting brells, casting heal on others, cast stun and using da hammer. In PoP paladins because the best rooters.

    Tanking, kiting, exploring, pulling, all SK.
    Loze likes this.
  14. Glowerss Augur

    Trying to say that Paladins do the same dps as SKs during those early eras is straight up wrong.

    Granted, it's not a Velious fight but this is a fairly normal non disc fight for SKs on one of our raids.

    /GU Silverwing in 161s, 152k @941 | #10 ShadowKnight 6869@(46 in 148s) | #13 ShadowKnight 5419@(36 in 149s) | #17 Paladin 3257@(21 in 151s)

    Here's another one same raid.
    /GU Phara Dar in 200s, 184k @921 | #8 ShadowKnight 8140@(46 in 175s) | #12 ShadowKnight 6281@(35 in 178s) | #16 Paladin 4620@(28 in 163s)

    If you want to see what a good burn looks like:
    /GU Trakanon in 207s, 103k @495 | #1 ShadowKnight 7301@(107 in 68s)

    /GU Trakanon in 73s, 106k @1457 | #1 Monk 7792@(119 in 65s) | #2 ShadowKnight 7389@(123 in 60s)

    I also checked to see if the paladin was healing on those fights, and he had exactly 1 Sup heal on both fights, so minimal dps loss.

    There's a lot of things Paladins do well, but trying to argue that SKs and Paladins do similar DPS is laughable at best, and detracts from anything else you might have to say.
    Bullsnooze likes this.
  15. WaitingforMoreEQ Waitingforvanillawow

    Not saying that pallies do the same DPS as SK, but i will say SKs aren't a good DPS class even Kunark. You did a really good job of showing why this misconception exists. You posted boss fights where the SK is obviously very mana negative, these are burns, just burns without discs. SKs have 2 real DPS spells in this era. Drain Soul which has about a 1-1 ratio on MOTM bosses and Boil Blood which does about 6 vs DPS vs MoTM with a 3-1 ratio if you're getting full duration. The sustainable DPS difference is probably close to +6-10 rather then +15-25. Which does give them slightly better DPS than the Pally, but it's nowhere near the perceived gap or what an actually DPS class like Rogue/Monk is doing.

    Keep in mind when talking about being duo with a Druid/Sham ect the Pally can stun/heal himself better and allow the Druid/Shaman to dump the mana saved from not healing into DPS spells that are significantly better then what SKs have making the Pally/Shm duo higher combined DPS until the SK gets a 2.0 click and catches up in the self sustain.

    P.S. Ranger better.
  16. Bullsnooze Augur

    I don't know why you guys would even argue the point of 'Paladins can keep up with Shadow Knights on the damage charts. I ignored the notion because these folks clearly are not raiding optimally, nor are they running any sort of parses on raids to back up their stance.
  17. Siirx Journeyman

    You literally have no idea what you are talking about, but you are posting like you do. Stop spreading misinformation. You can ask anyone who was been in a top guild on any of the recent TLP's. Sk damage is very good for a tank, and significantly better than a paladin always in any raid situation. Matter of fact the only time I have ever seen a paladin make a parse is on Master Vule in Depths of Darkhollow.

    I have topped parses on Venril Sathir and Trakanon in Kunark as an SK like #1 on the parse and it isn't an uncommon occurrence. Dagarn in Ntov also #1 quite a few ntov dragons top 10, Aow top 10, when getting mana pumped by a necro for memes I was #2 just behind our best wizard. Consistently top 10 on every boss in VT. Zama a different SK in AoS, the best guild on Phinigel for a long time, parses top 5 on Yar lir, in Dragons of Norrath expac and that is notorious for being a burn fight. You will never see a paladin ever be in top 10, let alone top 20 in a good guilds parse on the vast majority of raid content, there are a very very few select raid bosses as mentioned above where they can parse top 10, but it is few and far between.
    Loze likes this.
  18. WaitingforMoreEQ Waitingforvanillawow

    SK DPS is trash tier.
    SK burst DPS is good in a few expansions.

    Wrong. Any scenario where slay undead works Pallies typically compete with the best DPS classes. Outside of 30 second burn fights in Kunark SKs are never really competitive.
    The only time an SK even made the top 10 post PoP even on burn fights was 7th+ HT or in a raid that had like 20 people. You don't get 7th on TLPs anymore.
  19. Tweakfour17 Augur

    Not sure if this is a tongue in cheek jab at "no one plays past PoP" or if you think they removed 7th from TLP but everyone gets Vet AA now, starting in DoN regardless of account age. Or perhaps you meant you don't get 7th to use in era during PoP?
  20. Loze Elder

    Not sure where his numbers are coming from. On straight up tank and spanks, I make more top 10s than I don't. Since the beginning of Coirnav. Maybe they have 15 monks?

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