Pally healing

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Livvy_CT, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. josh Augur

    Well it's not exactly 1500 because of buffs and aa's that increase hate by a percentage, they apply after the 1500 cap. If you are seeing its higher at higher levels, its probably because of this. Either way, heals are not a significant amount of hate.

    With no hate mods a heal moved my aggro on my test subject by about 3-4%. FOD, which is 20k hate, moved it by about 70%. the heal does about 10% with hate mods on.

    My source for 1500 comes from a certain project on github, that is apparently against the rules to mention because it edits it out if you try to post it. I'm fairly certain they've tested it.
  2. Chaosflux Augur

    I quoted their thread on it in here in my previous post, however the cap is level based or appears to be because current content mpbs vs say Omens of War mobs same heal and heal values produve different amounts of hate without mods.

    Though that research on Github was from 2015 and i know in 2017 2018 there was some changes on Live.
  3. Wulfhere Augur

    Great, then I would ask the Devs to increase the hate mod on Valiant Healing more then incrementally, since the base heal hate amount is capped. I compare Valiant line to SK Insidious line which is gaining hate amounts at a much greater rate per expansion. Valiant is not keep pace and balance.

    What we have now is diminishing and weakening the Valiant line as we level, because of the hate cap on heals:

    [50073] Valiant Healing
    Hate Mod: +2100
    1: Increase Current HP by 9702

    MIN((9702 * 0.667), 1500) + 2100 = 3600 hate (4971 lost hate)

    [57899] Valiant Healing III Azia
    Hate Mod: +2606
    1: Increase Current HP by 11766

    MIN((11766* 0.667), 1500) + 2606 = 4106 hate (6347 lost hate)

    [61127] Valiant Healing IV Azia
    Hate Mod: +3127
    1: Increase Current HP by 14269

    MIN((14269 * 0.667), 1500) + 3127 = 4627 hate (8017 lost hate)
    Szilent likes this.
  4. Chaosflux Augur

    Even figuring a standard increase factoring the hate cap, it falls behind each iteration more and more from the initial implementation. Which is I think a key thing to note.
  5. Wulfhere Augur

    Aye, I posted at the time (2018) that Dzarn iirc overlooked the first Valiant Healing spell when he patched witness check. That it would be viewed in the future as an outlier having the original hate mod while all the subsequent ones got reduced by e.g. 2/3. Perhaps his search missed it because there are 2 spells with the same name (different IDs)?
  6. Ofearl Augur

    Tank better...

    If you dont want the extra hate/agro, adjust tour spell line up. Solutions have been given. Me on the other hand, I’ll use Vindi raid as an example, I hit anything and everything I can when adds spawn to attract agro. You know where they are coning from, face them, hit splash, or beacon, etc. hit flash and then other tanks can peel off me. Assign tanks to certain waves, or slots on etw.

    Personally it sounds like you are doing tour job, OP, the others with you are slacking.
  7. Maedhros High King

    Valiant has never ever been in balance with Insidious/Deceitful.
    Not once.
    It only adds insult to injury that Insidious/Deceitful line has a focus tab AA while Valiant line does not.
    I've mentioned it several times in Beta, but they have never added Valiant to our focus tab.
  8. josh Augur

    We are officially off the rails here but spell lines deteriorating over time is a problem. the percentage increase to healing and damage spells that are unfocusable, like valiant or our dichotomic, should be greater than other spells

    For some reason, dicho has been getting significantly smaller increases than regular spells. These spells will eventually become complete garbage because of this. dicho is already a very weak heal. A non crit can do as little as 50k, that's 10% of my hp, just trash for a 1 minute cooldown.

    This is really an every class issue though, not just pally. I'm curious if any of you people who regularly talk to devs have any idea of they are aware of this and just don't care, or if they just genuinely are oblivious to this problem.
  9. Warpeace Augur

    They seem to ignore a lot of Paladin Spell / focus that gets brought up. Not saying other classes don't get that feeling or treatment either.

    I'm looking at you CoV Paladin Alliance. The easiest answer they could provide would be we looked at it and consider it to be appropriate for you class to work harder than your fellow Knight to use it with all your other roles.
  10. Chaosflux Augur

    Speaking of Paladin Focus AA, the Grief focus AA helps the wrong part, the Recast is what should be improved, and extra %%% of healing on that spell given its use and application isnt nearly as important as bringing that recast more in line with the modern pacing of the game.

    And while we are going on about lines falling behind, all our nukes brilliant/glorious, the last rites line, denouncement, dps crush line all have fallen so far behind where they should be in relation to initial implementation its aggravating.
  11. Jokskilove Palzerker

    I use Valiant Deterrence as a replacement for Sincere Light as a patch heal in my lineup. Recast is half a second longer, but it's a 15k base heal instead of 9k. If I'm not doing other things that generate a lot of agro, it's mostly not a problem.
  12. Chaosflux Augur

    Base heal is a bit deceiving since Valiants heal is level 255 its not affected by gear focus/type 3 and has no focus line

    Actual heal throughput they are pretty close if not favoring Light if I am doing the math in my head right.

    Light will also proc threaded boon of potential heals where Valiant will not if that matters.

    Just throwing it out there. I'd probably so the same thing as you and use Valiant, but my reasoning wouldn't be based on heal value.
  13. Jokskilove Palzerker

    Solid arguments! I should probably have looked a little closer at the actual numbers, rather than just comparing the raw data when looking at the spells ingame. There's the convenience factor also of not having to swap between valiant and light when moving to a heal setup. But the downside that you can't actually target a player and cast it, which you may need to do on occasion
  14. Wulfhere Augur

    That's weird because Light and Protective are on the same timer and effectively serve the same function. Meanwhile Valiant is something else.

    Light is slightly faster casting (but longer recast) and less mana while Protective offers a guard recourse. Personally I feel that Light was made obsolete by Protective years ago, even now with the friendly target improvement to Light.
    Szilent likes this.
  15. shiftie Augur

    All heals are not created equal.

    Light is obsolete. Protective has too much upside to use light the 100% uptime on a 15% vie justifies the mana cost.

    Touch works but only when raid healing or a prime healer isn’t present.

    Brilliant, burst, splash, protective, valiant, aurora, wave, redemption, self heals

    Light is useless even with the changes unless they add more spell slots. And even then hierarchy will dictate something more useful.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  16. Wulfhere Augur

    I also feel that self heals, i.e. Propitiation line, are now obsolete with friendly target change to Burst line.

    To the Devs:

    friendly targeting - lets Burst replace Propitiation, gaining a spell gem. Nice

    friendly targeting - on Light (and continuing to upgrade Light) is a waste of time because Protective solved that years ago. Please discontinue obsolete lines when you make these QoL improvements. I'd rather have a new AC spell to upgrade Bulwark of Piety (OoW) then Light heals that never earn a spell gem

    friendly targeting - on Lay on Hands is mostly great and appreciated. Except the server still allows us to waste it on a non-tank who is instantly targeted by the server when the main tank dies during casting. The server is letting the NPC re-target before handling all the incoming client messages (e.g. Lay on Hands on server-side dead tank). Friendly target heals applied to the next/new target is still felt as a loss when it is Lay on Hands on the wrong target. I think that the client should send the friendly target to the server and if the server disagrees (it's authoritative) then fine, the spell resets. But do not let the server pick an essentially random target and waste the cast on a long reuse ability like that.
  17. Laronk Augur

    Valiant is great agro on raids on adds. I'd often hear a wtf from other tanks in discord but the reality was they weren't pushing their freaking buttons.
  18. Chaosflux Augur

    Idk id rather have the Self heals getting a focus line to keep them relevant that reduces recast, or just a recast reduction in general to keep pace with the modern game.

    I much prefer the .5s quiet over bursts 3s quiet I can bust one off without affecting my dps or hott healing output since it ignores the GCD and I am ready to keep rolling out whatever I was doing a second after I hit Alt+1. Burst is still my last choice even with type 51 targetting unless I am using it to heal a Targets target, and if they need a near LOH level heal, ill only hit it if LOH is down.
  19. Wulfhere Augur

    Interesting in that type 51 targeting on Burst is nearly a waste of dev's-effort for your play style, fair enough. Meanwhile you ask for cool down focus on self heals, rather how about asking for Burst to get the cool down foci instead? These two spell lines would converge easily if the devs listen to either of us.

    My preference for now is to gain a spell gem rather then have multiple/competing flavors of emergency heal with different drawbacks. For now, I'd rather have a emergency heal I can cast every 12 seconds versus 2.5 minutes. I generally don't want to use 2 spell gems for that singular purpose, barring some niche events were it's a good strategy to load up specific spells (like group heals).
  20. Chaosflux Augur

    Its not the 12s recast that is the problem, its the 3s quiet time is annoying and disruptive to the rhythm I've got while playing. I generally do the majority of my self healing with valiant/protective/denouncement lines.

    The opportunity cost for using burst is I lose 2 cast opportunities, 1 to cast it, and 1 because of the quiet time, I wouldn't want to have the happen more frequently tbh. 12s is generally fine CD if they were to get rid of the quiet time.