Paladin Wishes

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Allayna, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. Transporter Journeyman

    Give pallies PB'ae Splash, too many times there are places you can't target to cast it. Secondly give us aa's for our Stance line, and both group heal lines of spells. A lot of the casters already get aa versions of their spell lines.
  2. Wulfhere Augur

    After some thought ... gonna disagree on this idea, because it would be disabled 90% of the time making it too SKey.
  3. Allayna Augur

    I hear the concern. Mine is that the counter-argument for paladin atrocious dps is that we have stuns/heals and slay undead....a super niche population in the game. Out of the last 3 expansions, how much of it was stunnable or undead? Almost nothing in EoK/RoS was stunnable. Scattered undead in those zones with the exception of howling stones and sathir's tomb, having a decent amount. Then TBL came and there are stunnable mobs, but 0 undead.
  4. Metapsyche Augur

    I’m pretty well over stuns. I’d be very OK with not receiving a single new stun next expansion in exchange for some more dps. I like slay undead as it is and our undead nukes are fun, but I agree that it’s fairly niche.

    Some level of “inquisitor” AA line with like “Slay Heretic” or something like that could be fun- basically just gives an avenue to open additional mobs (not all, but maybe add some) up to slay undead procs?

    And maybe... like... if you’re going to give the other classes covenants and harmonious upgrades don’t forget Paladins?

    Also let’s re-think dissident/dicho for Paladins. Ours makes me sad.
    tyrantula likes this.
  5. Petalonyx Elder

    Paladin dicho/dissident is pretty good. No, it doesnt add one lick of DPS, but it does what it's supposed to do very well. It's great for responding to adds and for covering AOE when main healer gets incapacitated by knockback, silence, charm, etc. It's good for recovering on the move while pulling without triggering summons. And we can use it twice with Force Rejuv.

    If it hardened the paladin somewhat, that would be cool, but this thing is pretty awesome imo.
    Maedhros likes this.
  6. tyrantula Elder

    I sincerely hope we're actually needed in the next xpac other than for special event mechanics in a raid setting.

    Have our stuns also do the same amount of hate as our crush line.

    DPS increase/lots more undead. If I was around during TBM, I'd probably have a heart attack for as many undead as there are there.

    I've noticed in a tank setting we're always chosen last, at least make us even with SK tank ability (aggro production foremost). We tank just as good if not better than SKs imo.
  7. Wulfhere Augur

    I believe the reason behind our live DPS is mainly the priest level of healing.

    I don't think that having slay undead is a big part of that rationale, partly because it has stagnated for more years then it's been a factor. In other words, Slay Undead has already been "disabled" for years by neglect (no upgrades, e.g. Holyforge is level 59) and content design (no undead) as you point out. Any boost in undead DPS would be welcome here and should not detract from live DPS. It's so marginal in content that it should shine in practice.

    I've already asked for better melee skill stats to (slightly) improve accuracy (paladins are many levels behind). I would also simply ask for a new rank, Two-Handed Proficiency II, to boost paladin live DPS. There was a few months were rank 1 was tuned to be about 2x the dps it is currently. Paladins can and should get more here in keeping with mob hit points.
  8. tyrantula Elder

    Also upgrade our Leap of Faith to match the distance of Hate Step.
  9. Liljit Augur

    There is an enormous difference in playing the 2 knights. The amount of added AC, mitigation/rune mitigation, disc up-time and passive healing from melee is like shadow knight and day...

    Seems they forgot to include some AAs on the Paladin class that mirror cascading theft of defense AA or mortal coil. How about a long duration Stun/Splash combo that has no cure component and no push, maybe a 1 min reuse AA, 10s duration stun and 200 range non cure splash heal.
  10. tyrantula Elder

    Something I find annoying is SK taps being irresistible (while critting, healing, and damaging the mob are all possible)... paladin's heal Target-of-Target get resisted too often.

    I'm not advocating the SK taps being resistable, I'm hoping making pally line of ToT spells irresistible (valiant diversion, protective devotion, censure, admonish, etc).
  11. sojero Augur


    They can be resisted, they just have a very nice neg modifier on them. SK cannot tap the jopals in the towers on generals raid very well, i think i may get 1/10 of them to land. our resist adjusts are from -200 to -500 where yours are -15 to -50.

    If the tot heal initial spell is resisted does it still fire the heal? if they can still heal tot than that is probably why, if they cannot than i agree it needs to be adjusted, probably to -100.
  12. tyrantula Elder

    Heal doesn't fire for all except Protective Devotion. That's what I use to tank the tower mephits exclusively.
  13. sojero Augur


    I went and tested and only one that fires on a resist that i saw in logs was protective line.

    With the magic debuff you guys have, that would bring them in line to where most sk taps are in resist level if they were brought up to -100 to -140 resist.

    I would be hard pressed to see you guys getting that on the valliant line because of its fast refresh and agro, our counter to valliant, insidious has our worst resist at -50 because of its other uses as well.

    Censure i believe you should.

    The protect line firing even on resist and giving the buff would be a hard sell too, not that i am against it because whatever benefits pallies benefits me too.
  14. Brohg Augur

    Valiant already has the matching -50MR resist Insidious does. Meanwhile every other spell you feel like casting to heal yourself while tanking has -200 or -500 check, built in with no wasted cast time of a debuff necessary. You're "hard pressed to see" why that's not equitable?
  15. Wulfhere Augur

    Very wise of you. You can also target yourself to receive both the heal and the vie buff prior to engage (or otherwise preemptively).

    The reason the Protective line works in these cases is because they're beneficial Target of Target spells. The aren't checking the target's resist because they aren't casting anything on the target. They are casting a beneficial spell through the target.
  16. tyrantula Elder

    Having to use a spell slot to debuff isn't even a fair comparison, especially when that debuff gets resisted 100% of the time (on tower mephits). And even considering that, in a raid format that spell isn't worth it because you're wasting debuff slots on something you're likely not tanking, and spell slots for more useful spells.

    It's only worth memming for Aalishai and maybe Smoke if you're paranoid about reverse-DS landing on mephits.
  17. sojero Augur


    SK have other spells that are resisted just like paladins, we have our own debuffs for them, theirs debuffs magic where ours debuffs disease.

    As to every other spell we feel like casting to heal ourselves, comes with the risk of being interrupted and resisted, whereas pally can cast heals on themselves that heal for more, and are more reliable, less chance to be interrupted because less cast time. Its a trade off. Not to mention the fact that pally can heal others, while ours are self only (with minor exceptions)


    Nothing is going to help you on tower jopals, I was just using that as an example that sk can be resisted. In raid setting mobs will already have debuffs on them that are better than what you cast anyway.
  18. tyrantula Elder

    That niche example aside, in literally all other content an SK can land their taps (which are used to directly heal them), along with all their passive taps and epic that is a activated passive heal based on weapon damage to their target (they're virtually invincible 1v1 during this time).

    If you compare that to Paladins, where not only their Target-of-target heals are resisted too often, it's our only form of healing ourselves realistically (anyone who argues 'oh just use your direct heals' is ignorant).

    The example that drove this entire thread is a virtually magic-resist raid enemy that SKs don't tank anyway (do any guilds use anything other than Paladins here?). My argument is that our heal target-of-target spells should be the same resist check as SK taps. Or at least made to where the heal will go through regardless of resist check.
  19. sojero Augur


    Any pally that doesn't actively heal themselves with their direct heals is leaving tons of healing on the board. Pallies have an absolute ton of stuff that makes these stronger and can be used to last a very long time.

    I have already said I would support censure line to fire the heal on resist. I believe a good argument could be made for that since if resisted it does no damage either or bump up the resist mod on it.

    The valiant line (if I'm not mistaken) still gives agro, and is on the same line as sk insidious line so convincing a dev on that one would be hard.

    The protection line already fires on resist so it is fine where it is, and would be hard to make an argument for it getting better resist.

    You have to look at it as if you were a dev. you have to look at everything combined, not just one ability in a vacuum. If you looked at it as if pally was a different class than you played, would you be open to it knowing what the class is, a tank healer hybrid that can tank 4/5 a war and heal 3/4 a cleric and has the best heal/cure in the game.

    There has to be some limitations on the spells because you have other avenues of healing and that is trade off, hate/dmg with healing or just direct healing. Same as when SK tanks and they are out of their big agro things, they have to use terrors instead of lifetaps because of the amount of agro terror does over lifetaps.

    Asking for stuff is great, but you need to be ready to justify your reasoning. If you get to much, you are going to be knocked back down much like what happened in TBM, and that hurts worse than not getting it in the first place. To many people want to ask for the moon and not think about the repercussions to themselves and to other classes.

    Right now dev time is at a premium so thoroughly working through ideas, and them PM'ing a list to the respective dev with what you want and the justification behind it will get you a lot further. But that justification has to be thought out and reasonable.
  20. Wulfhere Augur

    I use Audacity in raids on those adds that need kiting or stunning that would otherwise resist my spells too often. Stratos jopals, burnt bones, frogs, and such. Adds don't have much competition for debuff slots so I don't worry about adding one or three more (audacity, refute, halt the dead) to lock them down.

    Likewise split and balance raids like Smoke where e.g. the fire boss needs a Mark of Orthiss to land, there are spare debuff slots in those scenarios, at least for the initial need. Audacity can wear off soon enough.

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