Paladin Hand of Tunare

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Wulfhere, Sep 23, 2019.

  1. Wulfhere Augur

    With the Sep 18th patch, the Hand of Tunare AA has been improved so that it's more usable and does not run the risk of killing the paladin (by an errant dispel). Have fun healing with a bit more potency.

    Hand of Tunare I
    Target: Self
    Duration: 6m (60 ticks)
    Max Hits: 10 Matching Spells
    1: Increase Chance to Twincast by 100%
    2: Limit Effect: Current HP
    3: Limit Effect: Current HP Repeating
    4: Limit Min Mana Cost: 10
    5: Limit Type: Exclude Combat Skills
    6: Limit Type: Beneficial
    7: Limit Effect: Exclude Twincast Blocker
    8: Increase Spell Mana Cost by 100%
    9: Limit Effect: Current HP
    10: Limit Effect: Current HP Repeating
    11: Limit Min Mana Cost: 10
    12: Limit Type: Exclude Combat Skills
    13: Limit Type: Beneficial
    14: Limit Effect: Exclude Twincast Blocker

    This ability, when activated, allows you to twincast up to 10 healing spells and abilities but increases their mana cost by 100% for 6 minutes.

    ~~
    Hand of Tunare AA recast timer is 18 minutes.

    The healing spells that twincast under Tunare consume 1 or 2 counters (of the 10) when the spell is cast:

    Valiant line - consumes 1 counter
    Censure line - consumes 1 counter
    Splash line - consumes 2 counters
    Wave of line - consumes 2 counters
    Protective line - consumes 2 counters
    Light line - consumes 2 counters
    Burst line - consumes 2 counters
    Touch line - consumes 2 counters
    Expiation line - consumes 2 counters
    Cleansing line - consumes 2 counters

    The Cleansing heal-over-time line twincasts on each tick as you might expect:

    [Mon Sep 23 00:39:15 2019] You healed Wulfhere over time for 0 (13752) hit points by Merciful Cleansing Rk. II. (Twincast)
    [Mon Sep 23 00:39:21 2019] You healed Wulfhere over time for 0 (30032) hit points by Merciful Cleansing Rk. II. (Lucky Critical Twincast)

    All other heals that a paladin can cast directly or indirectly are excluded.

    Counters from Tunare are consumed before the counter from Healing Twincast song buff, because of buff ordering.
  2. Allayna Augur

    I know that's what the spell description says on the AA. But I don't believe the increase in mana cost is for the full 6 minutes. Just until you use the counters or 6 minutes, which ever is first. I could do more testing on this to be sure.

    [Mon Sep 23 04:58:08 2019] The hand of Tunare blesses your healing.
    [Mon Sep 23 04:58:18 2019] You begin casting Force of Mercy Rk. III.
    [Mon Sep 23 04:58:21 2019] You healed Allayna over time for 1701 (18057) hit points by Merciful Healing III. (Lucky Critical)
    [Mon Sep 23 04:58:27 2019] You healed Allayna over time for 0 (8012) hit points by Merciful Healing III.
    [Mon Sep 23 04:58:33 2019] You healed Allayna over time for 0 (16024) hit points by Merciful Healing III. (Critical)
    [Mon Sep 23 04:58:39 2019] You healed Allayna over time for 16024 hit points by Merciful Healing III. (Critical)
    [Mon Sep 23 04:58:45 2019] You healed Allayna over time for 0 (16024) hit points by Merciful Healing III. (Critical)
    [Mon Sep 23 04:58:51 2019] The Hand of Tunare fades.

    So while Hand of Tunare was active I received a grand total of 17,725 actual healing from HoT. This was me soloing a gale in stratos.

    And you want it to eat those twin-counters by adding a mana cost to Force of Mercy for the HoT recourse? No thank you.
  3. Wulfhere Augur

    The mana cost is only applied to spells that are twincast. Btw spdat is a sequence of actions and conditions. To evaluate slot 8 (mana cost action), a spell has to pass conditions 1 to 7 first. This spdat reads as: (1) twincast spell if conditions 2 to 7 pass AND (8) increase mana cost if conditions 9 to 14 pass. Notice that slots 2-7 and 9-14 are the same conditions.

    Over healing can happen to any heal cast so that point is moot to me. Yes I do want Merciful Healing to twincast because Cleansing does. Think about it statistically (and using 2 counters per cast): 5 instant heals or 4 instant heals + 10 ticks of a duration heal or ... 50 ticks of a duration heal (the other extreme). It's all good, why call for a nerf eh?

    ps: My example of Cleansing was done in the guild hall while at full health, simply to show that each tick twincasts (without consuming any more counters).
  4. Allayna Augur

    Definitely not calling for a nerf here. My whole objection is based on counters. If Force of Mercy is in any kind of spam/stun lock line, each cast will eat a counter if you get what you want, which is a 10m addition to the recourse HoT. That's all I'm saying.

    And I think you're over-reaching saying that paladins everywhere will be loading cleansing so that one 1 cast every 18 minutes they can twin HoT. If you raid, you know spell gem space is limited and a HoT isn't gonna take precedence over many other beneficial spells. I should also note that I'm not a goddamn cleric, I'm a paladin, I don't load ANY single target heals and that includes HoT.
  5. Derka Power Ranger

    Oh man if that 10 mana cost wasn't there that would be one heck of a group heal with reflexive.
  6. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    OK - dumb question time...

    Why are some of them using 1 counter vs. 2?
  7. Cragzop Cranky Wizard


    Bad coding.

    Paladins are not the first to see twincast counters eaten faster than expected. The combo spell types can eat multiple counters for classes (like Braid for wizard … always eats two counters of ITC … one for the braid, and one for the ethereal skyfire it casts).

    There's something going on behind the scenes on those spells that eat 2 vs those that eat 1 where the game thinks that you are casting 2 spells … thus 2 counters eaten.

    Who knows? Now that pallies are affected, the bug might actually get fixed (I know I have reported it at least twice for wizard and others have as well).
  8. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    Thanks. That's what I was wondering because I didn't see anything in those spells to suggest why they should be taking two counters instead of just one. I didn't use the old version of the ability very often though, so never really bothered to look into it's mechanics..
  9. Wulfhere Augur

    You said ...

    ... which I understood to mean calling for the exclusion of Cleansing (and future spells) from Tunare. E.g. removing 3: Limit Effect: Current HP Repeating from the spdat for Tunare.

    Other then that I think our differing positions are clear. I use spells that you don't and we have different expectations for the Force of Mercy line. I do use it for the HOT, not merely the stun.
    Allayna likes this.
  10. Wulfhere Augur

    Dear Dzarn,

    Regarding Force of Reverence line (includes Force of Ardency and Force of Mercy) and my request about enabling the heal recourse to twincast via Hand of Tunare.

    Thinking about it some more, I can imagine that simply adding 10 mana to the recourse might be considered overpowered by the devs. I.e. getting twincasts for 10 + 10 * 100% (slot 8) = 20 mana is a lot of healing. So I'm going to suggest that the mana cost for this line of spells is in the wrong place (and always has been). Here me out.

    For ages now, since level 75, the cost of a paladin no-dmg stun has been a flat 100 mana. The Lesson line has never been more then 313 mana. Force of Reverence, level 99, introduced the stun + duration heal recourse. The high 1273 mana cost for this combine was placed on the stun and the recourse has zero mana. Now I'm going to propose that this be reversed and normalized, in order for e.g. Merciful Healing to twincast at a mana cost that's commensurate for that power.

    In short please consider, for this line of spells, moving the mana cost from the stun to the recourse. For normal spell casts the total mana cost would be the same. For a twincast, the larger portion of the mana cost on the recourse would be fairly doubled. Example:

    [34473/10546] Force of Reverence
    Classes: PAL/99
    Skill: Evocation
    Mana: 100
    Target: Single
    Range: 200'
    Resist: Magic -30
    Reflectable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 1s, Recast: 30s, Timer: 3, Rest: 1.5s
    Hate: 3454
    Recourse: Reverent Healing
    1: Stun for 6s up to level 103
    Strikes your target with the force of reverence, stunning them and reflecting a heal back on yourself. This effect works on creatures up to level 103.

    [34476/10559] Reverent Healing
    Classes: PAL/99
    Skill: Alteration
    Mana: 1173 (1273 - 100)
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 1s, Recast: 30s, Rest: 1.5s
    Duration: 24s+ (4 ticks) Song, Dispelable: Yes
    1: Increase Current HP by 5009 per tick
    Bathes you in reverence, healing you for 5009 hit points every six seconds for 24s.
  11. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    If you are changing the way spells work so that it works once every 15 minutes with an aa ability...

    ...it might be time to rethink.

    I honestly have no idea what would start to change if you mess with the mana cost of recourse abilities. But I do know that every time something is changed for one specific reason, ninety nine unintended changes pop up. One thing off the top of my head is the calculation of whether you have the mana to cast the spell or not check...can you have the mana for the stun, but not the recourse? What happens then?

    Solving the counter eating issue seems like the place to try to plant the flag in issues with Hand of Tunare. If someone will listen on that, plant the flag, declare victory and move on.
  12. Allayna Augur

    So many good things coming in the next expansion. Making heals work like LoH now works is a much welcomed change. I think the Hand of Tunare changes are fair to all involved.
    Metapsyche likes this.
  13. Metapsyche Augur


    “Finally, as it is tangentially related to the usability of Paladin heal spells, I would like to note that it is in the works for the next expansion (and will eventually be backfilled afterwards) that hybrid heal spells are going to start using target type 51 (like Lay on Hands) so hybrids will not have to swap targets in order to heal the target of their current opponent.”

    That is very very exciting news
    Allayna likes this.
  14. Maedhros High King

    I'm pretty sure all this is going to accomplish is that mana cost on our stuns might go up. There is no reason whatsoever to twin cast the duration of the reflect HOT on force of mercy, as the current duration of the HOT is already longer than the recast of the stun.
    Allayna likes this.
  15. Wulfhere Augur

    Dzarn has listened and already fixed things up how he thinks best. He noted that recourse spells do not charge their mana cost, so my idea with Force doesn't work in the current spell system anyways. I agree that his attention to Tunare can go towards fixing other spell counter issues since it's fresh in his mind.

    Looking forward to the next path.
    Stephen51 likes this.
  16. Stephen51 Augur

    Wulfhere said:

    Paladin healing spells are consuming 2 counters of Hand of Tunare per 1 cast. Instead of 10 counters, it's effectively 5 counters.
    Preview of the change coming in next month's update:
    Paladin - Hand of Tunare - Increased the number of counters on this ability to 20 to account for the fact that a successful twinheal focused with the mana penalty will consume 2 charges per cast. Reduced the duration of the ability from 6 minutes to 5 minutes and reduced the reuse time of the ability from 18 minutes to 15 minutes. Updated the ability so that the healing component of your Denouncement and Valiant Deflection line of spells will continue to be twincast but the initial mana cost of these spells will be increased to compensate.
    It was noted in another thread that recoursed heals with a mana cost were consuming 1 charge instead of 2. This was happening because recoursed spells do not charge their mana cost but do have the ability to twincast so the section of the code that would have consumed a charge for the mana focus was not hit while the section of code that consumes a charge for a twincast was hit.
    To ensure expected and consistent behavior I've added an additional mana focus section to the buff that increases the cost of detrimental paladin spells that cost mana that contain the SPA to trigger another spell, which in this case limits it exclusively to spells in the Denouncement and Valiant Deflection lines. Meaning you will get the expected twinhealing but you will incur the mana penalty on the initial spell cast.
    The reuse/duration change is part of a longer term effort to normalize recast timers around fewer variable values, so reuse timers like 20 and 15 are preferable to 18 and given that I expect players to run into the 10 cast cap before the 6 minute cap, a reduction of 1 minute for the benefit of reducing the recast by 3 minutes is intended to be an improvement.
    Finally, as it is tangentially related to the usability of Paladin heal spells, I would like to note that it is in the works for the next expansion (and will eventually be backfilled afterwards) that hybrid heal spells are going to start using target type 51 (like Lay on Hands) so hybrids will not have to swap targets in order to heal the target of their current opponent.

    Maedhros and shiftie like this.
  17. shiftie Augur

    This is amazing!

    And just like that our request for hand of tunare 8 years ago has just become a staple aa!
    Allayna likes this.