Paladin future needs

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Redemption, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. shiftie Augur

  2. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    Not that I agree, but Allayna thinks the aggro mod from the preservation line (our version of Voice of Thule) should be moved to the admonish/censure line of nukes. On top of that, the negative modifiers for aggro should be removed from the admonish/censure line of nukes.
  3. shiftie Augur

    Like a recourse buff? That’s forcing people to use that line of spells which I am not particularly fond of for the purpose of healing, I only use it for dps but when maxing a spell set I separate what I’m using for dps vs what I’m using for healing or tanking. If I’m adding aggro to it then I’m reducing its effectiveness for dps. Without playing some obscure buff block game I think that’s a horrible idea.
    Warpeace, Kleitus_Xegony and Wulfhere like this.
  4. Wulfhere Augur

    Pretty much yep. I did some passive heal testing yesterday, including Steely, to see how far it carries a paladin. Here's the summary:

    Setup in FM and fighting sarnaks. Relying on all the passive heals, how many sarnaks could I tank without defensive discs and active healing? With shield vs 2h?

    Healing spells: Preservation of Rodcet, Force of Mercy (HOT recourse), Blessing of Life (innate), weapon lifetaps (and shield lifetap), Blunted Blade (for Healing Light), and Steely.

    Tanking one to three sarnaks, until they were dead from melee, was no problem (1H or 2H) and the passives kept me above 50% health most of the time. Damage spikes with 2H were more frequent but not lethal. Casting Steely after a bigger damage spike generally healed me back to full HP within 30 seconds and all its charges were generally consumed in about 1 minute (yep). Adding a fourth sarnak required some spot healing to stay alive about 20% of the time (based on my spells counts). Yes I turned off attack if my target was riposting (but not if the others were riposting my riposte swings and bashes). Btw, with 2HS (Chopper) I averaged 68K dps auto attacking and killing 3x faster then with 1HS (Swordmaster's Honor).

    In this test scenario, Steely acts like a unreliable and HOT form of Grief as they both have a 2 minute recast time. In other words you could simply memorize Grief or Expiation instead of Steely and have the same (and safer) experience. So yeah I conclude that there is still no reason to memorize Steely while tanking. That leaves it as a spell to maybe use when someone else is tanking with raid stacking of paladins being the most potent option. Even then, I think that's very weak compared to casting say Censure in those cases. Steely remains in the dusty pages of my spell book.
    Brohg and Kleitus_Xegony like this.
  5. Seldom Augur

    I use Steely line far more than any other Paladin I’ve encountered and even then it’s in my lesser used spell sets. I will say there is zero situation in which I mem most current version of Steely without memming older one as well. Rotating between both allows for decent uptime and is alright for smoothing out damage. I agree with Warpeace and you as well though that this spell line should be 20 procs per minimum to bring to proper relevancy. If it were made into an AA that would make sense also
    Maedhros likes this.
  6. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    So...., I was intrigued by the idea of using both the current and previous version and tried it in raids this past weekend. I honestly hadn't bothered to mess with these spells much because of the proc limits and refresh time. I don't think I'll ever bother with that idea again unless the proc limit is either increased or removed. It just didn't provide much of a benefit because of the somewhat random nature of a proc - just as likely to get a heal when I needed it as I was when I didn't need it.

    I could probably work it into my spell sets I use while grouping but that refresh time is a killer if I ever have to switch spell sets for some reason. I'm not sold on setting aside 1 spell slot for it let alone 2 when I can get more use out of almost anything else I would load instead. I'm not sure 20 procs would be enough of an improvement but I think somewhere around 25-30 would be. That way you wouldn't need to keep both the current and previous versions up.

    It would be useful as an AA that cast the highest version of the one you have memorized though. I do like that idea. In the group game, you'd pop it when you had a namer or some terrible pull. In the raid game you'd probably just use it when you have a bad situation and you're mostly hoping an extra heal is all you need to squeek by.
    Seldom and Wulfhere like this.
  7. Seldom Augur

    Back in RoF era Steely healed for 2579 and was far more impactful relative to hit point pools and ToT heals. RoK Steely only heals for 3186, which is an unbelievably small increase when you factor in just how much HP etc has inflated since RoF. I’d love to see the heal increased personally, plus more counters. If the heal can’t be increased I especially see no reason just to not make it into an AA though

    I haven’t used it in a modern raid setting in recent times. If healing was light it wasn’t bad to use RoF+VOA Steely back in RoF/CoTF eras.

    Generally when I use them now my only concern is smoothing out damage in something that will be an extremely long encounter for my DPS level or if I’m botting and am not going to be able to be overly reactive
    Wulfhere likes this.
  8. Warpeace Augur

    I have actually used it a lot more this year just for the extra free TotT heals. Sadly I have always found the limited proc count on it to be underwhelming, and the healing could use a boost. I started adding it in when the RoS Familiar and Defiant Stance were not stacking.

    Honestly never checked if older versions would work with it. Good to know but don't see giving 2 gems to it. One gem is pushing it due to the proc limit and recast. This does make me wonder if that is intended or a bug to be able to use the current and prior versions. Hard to say some times.

    Im ok with the heal value but they need to increase the total procs available to make it desired.
  9. Skelex New Member

    Bringing Paladins up to speed

    Pure Forge should be changed from a Disc to an AA.

    I would also like to see more dual mode spells with different damage bases for undead and live targets on the same spell.

    Increase the crit dmg or the base damage on spells and nukes.

    Improve the damage and the proc rate of slays.

    All Disciplines need new focus aa's since spell casting mastery was nerfed.


    Harmonious Blessing should attempt to stun 4 mobs at a time instead of the group heal.

    need to add a point blank AOE's Nukes and or Stuns


    Crush of the Timorous should have a taunt added so it taunts and then generates 21189 hatred.
    The Crush line of spells should be instant cast at this point.

    Another possible way to increase agro
    add Hate to paladin heal spells
    the self heal line like Expiation generate 10000 to 21000 added hate
    group heal line like Wave of Expiation generate 5000 to 15000 added hate
    add AA's to increase the amount of hate heals generate,
    but also having the ability to turn off that agro so not to disrupt the healing benefit paladin class adds to raids
    something similar to the way bold attacks works.
  10. Maedhros Augur

    Changing Pureforge from a disc to an AA, presumably so you could use it while you're under defensive discs just makes no sense and I don't see it happening. There are already tactics that you can do while using Pureforge to still maintain some defensiveness and throw down the dps.
    The only change I want to see is a new level 110 version that has a few more percentage points toward the dps and a 25-40% increase in duration, or AA's that affect hybrid disc duration now that Spell Casting Reinforcement mastery does not.
    [25401/10339] Pureforge Discipline Rk. III
    Classes: PAL/90
    Skill: Offense (Combat Skill)
    Endurance: 1898, Upkeep: 20 per tick
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 0s, Recast: 20m, Timer: 12
    Duration: 2m+ (20 ticks), Dispelable: No
    Hate: 1
    1: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 340%
    2: Increase Chance to Crippling Blow by 40%
    3: Increase Chance to Triple Attack by 50%

    To something like:
    [25401/10339] Divineforge Discipline Rk. III
    Classes: PAL/110
    Skill: Offense (Combat Skill)
    Endurance: 3600, Upkeep: 50 per tick
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 0s, Recast: 20m, Timer: 12
    Duration: 3m+ (30 ticks), Dispelable: No
    Hate: 1
    1: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 350%
    2: Increase Chance to Crippling Blow by 50%
    3: Increase Chance to Triple Attack by 60%

    Pureforge came out at level 90 in Veil of Alaris which was released November 15th 2011. No new dps disc since Obama's first term? Lebron hadn't even won his first title with Miami yet. Game of Thrones had only just aired their season 1. The first Avengers movie hadn't come out yet.

    I think pretty much every DD we have does more dmg to undead already with the notable exception of Crush of the Timorous Deep. Definitely could add the undead boon to that too.

    Good luck getting a change to pretty much any Harmonious at this point.
    If they decide to create new versions or upgraded ones it would be two expansion from now for 110, if they have decided to settle in to a standardized schedule.
    This coming expansion would/should be due to replace the old Dichotomics?

    I am pretty satisfied with our AE Agro right now in comparison to the other tanks.

    What you're describing for an upgrade to COTD sounds a lot like SK Mindless, except even more powerful. After the nerfs to Mindless Hatred and Warlords Grasp, I can't imagine we will see an even more powerful version given to paladins.

    Heal agro is tricky, and sometimes leads to more harm than good. Old Shining Bastion pre-nerf comes to mind.
    I would prefer to keep agro for paladins and all tanks something that is actively pushed, not passively added to other abilities.
    Warpeace, Seldom and Kleitus_Xegony like this.
  11. Wulfhere Augur

    Duration longer aye. More then a measly 10 percentage increases for doubling the endurance cost though. Remember we want an upgrade to Holyforge too please Devs.
    Even longer ago. House of Thule afaic I remember getting rank 3 from Upper House raid.
  12. Maedhros Augur

    Damn you're right. Got the level 90 increase expansion mixed up. Its been even longer then.
    House of Thule was released October 12th 2010. So Pureforge is indeed older than Game of Thrones.
    EQ just hit their 19th anniversary and Pureforge has existed for nearly half the entirety of EQ with no upgrade.
  13. Warpeace Augur

    Its old and tired. Needs a reboot if going to stay on a 20 minute timer with 5 minutes of up time. Considering the streakiness of Slay the disk could be re extended to 10 minutes and not break Forumquest.

    This is supposed to be a class that excels at dps on undead mobs.
  14. Razorfall Augur

    Here's what I want:

    AA/Spell unity to combine stance/steel/preservation lines
    Increase duration and counters of short term buffs except for stance (preferably remove counters altogether)
    100% chance of Helix of the undying triggering
    Increased slaying damage or proc rate
    Have our lay hands type of abilities damage to undead for huge amount
  15. Warpeace Augur

    Why we already have access to the AA Vanquish the Fallen? Why try and pervert a heal into something else and not just ask for more ranks of Vanquish the Fallen.

    I agree with an increase to Knight's Helix of the Undying though probably not 100% , it is resisted way to often as it is. Thats not mentioning the additional .5 sec recast Daybreak added to it this last patch. It was already added to an agro ability as a bad choice unless soloing but if I need to slow a mob while someone else is tanking I now have to apply agro over time if the slow even lands through multiple attempts.
  16. Seldom Augur

    Think you’re mixing it up with Holyforge a bit. Pureforge is just 2 minute duration. In light of the SCR nerf + Valorous Rage massacre, both should be on a 10ish minute refresh probably. Both Pureforge and Holyforge could use some reboots though.

    I’m a bit conflicted at state of our DPS currently relative to the other two tanks. If we’re trading in substantial DPS for the ability to heal others that makes perfect sense to me and I’m fine with it. The gap between War/SK versus Pal damage is vastly larger than it’s ever been, in every category(burn,sustain etc).

    Now if we’re trading the ability to heal others for substantial DPS, aggro capabilities and powerful mitigation+large sums of HP, I’m not fine with that and don’t want to see this trend continue
  17. Warpeace Augur

    No your right I did. Still our dps can use a boost.
    Seldom likes this.
  18. shiftie Augur

    I meant to comment on this sooner but the numbers you proposed would do almost nothing in the grand scheme.
  19. Allayna Augur

    Mobs that aren't stun immune.

    It's not like there are lifetap immune mobs in game ;)
  20. shiftie Augur

    I should clarify. After they gutted VR our problems started. Hit holyfiege or pureforge without hitting vr and parse the passive melee difference without blessing or 7th. And you will catch my meaning. They add very minimal effect. Upping the values slightly will do next to nothing. A real ask would be for an accuracy mod something we are definitely lacking in.

    However I don’t think melee mods are our answer, improvements to thunder of karana or something separate maybe on another timer than hand of tunare that offers spell twin cast vs healing twincast

    Second spire is laughable but it is our dps spire meanwhile 3rd is also useless we should have an activated ability to mod spell and proc damage that isn’t garbage.

    Spires came out before our class took a path of spell damage. The flat damage by second pales in comparison to spell spires that exist for other classes.

    With the inflation of mob hp ij needs evaluated also either by proc count or base damage. It is all very bleh and stagnated now. In underfoot the damage it produced made sense our slight increase every expansion has not kept pace with mob hp. I’d also like to see the timer reduced to 6 minutes as all of our disc uptime has been neutered

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