Paladin Disc: Holyforge (Level 55)

Discussion in 'Bug Reports' started by Dahaman, May 19, 2020.

  1. Dahaman Augur

    Holyforge Disc: 680% mod Slat Undead effect
    Level 56 Slay Undead: 5 damage (this was my first Slay Undead - too funny!)
    Level 57 Slay Undead: 19 damage
    Level 58 Slay Undead: 20 damage

    Autogranted Slay Undead 1/2/3 AA: 1700% mod Slay Undead effect
    Level 59 Slay Undead: 4300+ damage

    The min damage for a slash attack was greater than some of the Slay Undead damage at level 56 thru level 58. The disc is supposed to be 680% Slay Undead mod. Sounds like wonky math and a potential bug with the disc to me.

    My max damage for a normal hit was 243 @ 56th, 257 @ 57th, 264 @ 58th and 264 @ 59th for reference. NOTE: This was using a Blade of Disruption (1H Slash).

    I saw via forum searching that others had parsed another bug with Holyforge stacking with Slay Undead AA. However, I'm not sure if anyone tested it without Slay Undead AA to detect any bugs with the basic disc.

    So far, I can't really tell if I even have Holyforge disc running (at levels 56 thru 60). Very, very occasionally I do see a cripple hit, but it is so seldom that using the disc is pretty close to optional. Does it ever become "good"?

    Story Time: I confess I'm use to playing an SK. I had some time to kill before the next expansion on the TLP I play, so I thought I'd give paladin a shot. I wanted to see this Slay Undead for the first time ever on my very own paladin. I worked him up thru the levels methodically as time permitted. I hit the Holyforge disc that first time and got a Slay Undead for 5 damage. I just about laughed my head off at the utter disappointment in the irony of that patience payout. The Slay Undead AA though, THAT was the real stuff.

    IF the Holyforge disc is not functioning for the real paladins out there, I do hope they fix it!

    Fenthen and Wulfhere like this.
  2. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Holyforge works fine.

    You only get get those tiny slays prior to buying the Slay Undead AA because of the slay line they added to increase slays rates.

    This is just like a priest or caster that equipped a cleave item getting melee "crits" for like 1 damage. You don't have the ability to do so natural, so you have a 0 on the multiplier and are just seeing your damage bonus or whatever.
  3. Wulfhere Augur

    Where did you get that incorrect info? 680 happens to be the damage modifier for SU Rank 1.

    Holyforge does:

    [4500] Holyforge Discipline
    Classes: PAL/55
    Skill: Offense (Combat Skill)
    Endurance: 0, Upkeep: 8 per tick
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 0s, Recast: 67.5m, Timer: 2
    Duration: 5m+ (50 ticks), Dispelable: No
    Hate: 1
    1: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 200%
    2: Increase Chance to Crippling Blow by 20%
    3: Increase Chance to Slay Undead by 1.4% with 1700 Damage Mod

    So at level 55-58 (before Slay Undead AA), you have a low chance for slays with the same damage modifier as SU Rank 3.

    You also have 200% chance to critical and 20% chance to cripple. So you want to get max worn Cleave and Combat Fury AA to see real benefits under Holyforge in that level range. Also there is Tribute for both critical hits and flurry that help.
    GNOME_POWER likes this.
  4. Dahaman Augur

    I agree you should have that chance but that is not the way it seemed to have worked. I literally hit for 5 damage with a Slay Undead at level 56 using the Holyforge disc. It wasn't until the Slay Undead AA that Slay Undead seemed to work properly.

    How much damage increase is a "1700 Damage Mod"?
  5. Wulfhere Augur

    It's possible there is a bug with Holyforge for levels 55 to 58, prior to Slay Undead AA. I don't see how though as slot 3 of HF is the same as SU. It is SU for the duration of the disc.

    I think what you saw is a fully mitigated min-hit slay. Slay hits are still mitigated by mob AC. Was your 5 dmg hit from a bash? Bash damage (especially 2H bash) has very low base damage (and possibly still has a damage cap at your level). I believe shield AC still factors into bash damage which is why 2H bashes are lower (no shield equipped).
  6. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    No. That is not how holyforge works without slay undead.

    The slay undead formula is set to a 0 multiplier without slay aa purchased. If you don't have slay undead aa you don't get to do slays with that scale, you just get that 1.4% chance to get a swing tagged as a "slay", but it gets no modifier added to it.

    What you see is just DB from hStr.

    A slay with HF but without slay undead is essentially a miss that gets heroic DB added to it. I don't even know if regular DB is added or from vicious smash on bashes.

    As I said, its no different than a caster without any ability to melee crit equipping a cleave item. You'd see melee "crits" for 0 all the time.
  7. Dahaman Augur

    That would explain what I was seeing. Still sounds like a bug to me.

    I'm not saying it is a bug, just that the level 55 disc not working at all for a fresh level 55 paladin is... interesting. I'll chalk it up to a weird implementation.

    Good Discussion... Thanks!
  8. yepmetoo Abazzagorath


    Holyforge is a level 55 disc from Kunark.

    Luclin came out later, and slay undead was a level 59 ability.

    At the time, slays were converted critical hits (when you successfully rolled a crit, you had another roll to see if it turned into a slay). So buying slay undead lowered your crit rate, but upped your dps.

    The problem was that holyforge lowered your slay undead rate, because the check for crippling blows is before the check for critical hit.

    So there were requests for a long time to upgrade holyforge by adding a slay undead modifier.

    Eventually, slay undead was changed to no longer be converted critical hits (during GoD, with the introduction of cleave), and slay undead mod was added to holyforge after one of those class request list things went through (Ashlanne or Piestro thing way back when iirc).

    Adding this also broke it for awhile (clicking HF was less dps than not clicking it, because it was reducing your slay rate entirely for like a 9 month period).

    So its just a complete "bonus" that someone below level 59 without slay undead can cleanse at all.

    We didn't get another dps disc until level 90. So they just gave HF a little boost, at our request is all.
    Mithra and GNOME_POWER like this.
  9. Wulfhere Augur

    Interesting. I remember the history you've discribed Yepmetoo. Interpreting the more (most?) recent posts by Niente and the HF spdat, I think we have cause to declare a bug


    Let me highlight the relevant parts from Niente's post:

    From Dahaman's post, he saw a 5 dmg slay. Notice the "add 5 damage" line. That also implies he has "some amount of crit chance SPA" 169. Yepmetoo responds that the multiplier is zero without SU AA purchased. That too seems correct.

    However, you can see that Niente says that the multiplier can include the value supplied by Holyforge. Therefore we can conclude that Holyforge is bugged.

    Niente also says that Crippling Blows from HF require an undead target and I think all paladins know that that is not true (a noticeable benefit of HF are cripples vs live mobs).

    See Combat Fury AA

    Niente made at last that one mistake in his thoughtful post about how the code works. Is he wrong a both counts? Apparently so. Is Holyforge more beneficial in it's current form, i.e. not working from 55 to 58 and yet providing crippling blows to live mobs from 55 to 115+? Maybe paladins on live will say "leave it alone". While TLP paladins, who keep reliving the 55-60 era, will say "fix the bug". This thread is evidence of the latter.
  10. Dahaman Augur

    Another Potential Issue:

    I "Slay Undead" bashed an undead for 1000+ damage at level 60. That seems appropriate damage potential. I noticed however that this was not a proc effect, but the actual attack. No problem with that, except...

    At level 56, when I did Slay Undead for 5 damage, below min damage for a swing, that would mean that Slay Undead routine was reducing the damage to below min damage. That would be a bug for certain. I do not know if the 5 damage Slay Undead was a bash, which might have had a lower min damage than a normal weapon swing.

    For posterity, here is the equipment my paladin is/was using during all of this:

    Sword: Blade of Disruption
    Shield: Brightstar Buckler

    The paladin had only autogranted AAs, no heroic stat gear, and was sporting ~240 STR.
  11. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    The question is if you are replacing a hit with what is essentially a null slay, or if its replacing a miss.

    If its replacing a regular hit, then yeah, losing a bit of damage.

    If its not, then you aren't.

    This affects so few people though, its a blip, but no reason not to look into it (if time).

    It was easier when slays were a separate line (and crits for that matter), as it let you separate DB type add ons from the damage formula.
  12. Wulfhere Augur

    Voting it up. I think there is a bug or two in how Holyforge calculations are done. I'd like to see them fixed and provide impetus for new ranks of the disc.
  13. Wulfhere Augur