The only one that sees an attack here is you, I just replied to each of your points and that's by using quotes because there were different things you brought up which needed different answers for each. I actually intend to use that way of replying again, which is the most clear to respond to a long post (and that you used aswell above). Did I misquoted you or something above? When I take the time to specifically add "(general you)" you still feel I'm talking about you here? I wasn't, you need to reread this thread to find that someone did actually mention that the spell is so crap it should be deleted. Good for them, I did provide reasons as of why I think this spell has some kind of uses even in it's current state. It's because of those reasons that I can form my opinion and yes, it may differ sometimes from the other's opinion. Big deal. It's not, it is instant. If it was a grief type heal I would use the previous versions of the spell instead. It's not positioning only or emergency heal only but a mix of both. You never have to move a mob in a raid? Well it happens quite a lot for me (no need to focus on this example btw, it's one of them, not the only one). Add the emergency heal option and there are times where the spell fits. I'm raiding TBM currently. Finally, if you feel attacked by this thread or the way it's made, you're wrong. If I wanted to attack back someone I would come up with a comment and not bother taking the time to give an answer to each point. I don't spend enough time on this forum for that. I also don't plan on overexplaining my position since convincing others is not a fundamental motivation for me, I mostly just shared my point of view and don't mind detailing if asked but that's it.
So I found that this spell is "useful" on the Plane of War raid!!! That makes 1 raid in the last 3 expansions that it doesn't feel like a waste of a spell slot. I think its pretty safe to say that this spell is situational at best and its important to keep in mind that nearly every other Dichotomic for the other classes are freakin awesome and well worth using basically all the time. Quibbling over how many different situations this spell is useful in is a waste of typing. The ranger, berserker, bard, enchanter, cleric and shammy ones that I have direct experience with are all of the "cast this immediately pretty much everytime it refreshes" variety. The paladin one should be like that too. The way the paladin dichotomic combines 3 spells that we cast often seems like a sure thing, but where it misses the mark is the reuse and mana cost.
Yes, a few times now. You can't take 3 words (mid sentence) which I wrote and act on it with a reply to put it in any context in which you choose. I wrote ...'grief-type heal'...; however your quote completely omitted the context in which those words were used especially when my following words were 'isn't viable due to its limitations'. Not once did I say the grief line was instant... but you chose to point out that Dichotomic Force was instant in a way to convey I was wrong by suggesting you should use grief instead of D.F. Here is the other one-- Yes, I know someone said it should be deleted. However nothing I have said... in 'general' form or not, has suggested I wanted it deleted also. Don't put someone's opinions off as mine or that I agree with what they are saying. Soooo... I re-read the thread and original quote you made was... Well... with or without the '(general you)' its pretty clear your referring to me saying -I said- this spell should be deleted. I didn't add words to your quote, nor did I cut it down to fit my side of the debate. Or are you saying that because someone else said it should be deleted ... and that my opinions on the spell are -generally- the same as that other person... that I now have no idea what I'm talking about too because he wanted it deleted? ???? Where are the rolling head emogies? --------- Ok; soooo I will --ask-- a second time for you to give an example of a raid or group content in which you would use the spell for the the reasons you have stated in your previous posts. I'm not asking for you to 'overexplain' or to convince anyone. I'm simply asking for a raid or group content currently in game for when this spell is worth taking a spell slot. If you would use it when your positioning mobs, tell me when you have a need to position mobs within the current game. Which raids or group content are you using this spell? I can only think of 2 times in raids during the last 3 expansions where I may need to use the Dichotomic Force for the healing portion while I was positioning mobs. All of the other times that I know of, I can gain agro while standing where I want to tank the mob before it spawns. Any other time in which I need to agro a mob from a kite or pull, they are so far away, they have no chance of hitting me or doing enough spell damage that I would need a heal. One raid (ToR, 8 adds around 50%), the positioning is very close to the agro area and only done once during the event. However there is some movement needed after agro depending on how each raid executed the event. I wouldn't use DF during this raid, but others might I guess. The other raid (Arx 4, phase 2) has an opportunity for paladins to CC via stun / kite, we have 4 other stuns to use, so the DF is an additional stun but could be used once or twice during that phase. Again, I will say I have only raided a few different events in TBM, so there may be events out there where this spell -is- needed that I don't know about. But what events are you using it for?
Thank you Maedhros. I had no idea about the plane of war raid. But I'm glad someone found another use for it and shared it here. I completely agree with the feelings of how useful and beneficial the majority of the other Dichotomic spells are to the game. I agree, it's unfortunate we have to debate the usefulness of this spell compared to other classes, but if we don't stand up as a 'united group of paladins', I feel we have zero chance to get anything done to change the spell. Especially when some posters are saying they use it, but when challenged, they cant come up with examples of in-game context. The chances of Daybreak actually adjusting this spell are very slim even if we do stand together.
You should understand posts before replying to them. I quoted exactly the wrong part of your post. You thinking it's about the same kind of spell, no it's not: 0,3 sec and instant is a whole world difference. This is what I was referring too, but keep going in your imaginary world where I said that I ommited anything relevant when I only react to the fact that no, it's exactly because it's not a grief type spell that I was finding uses for it. Instead of wasting your time posting wall of texts, you could have take 30 sec, just like I did, to find out in page 1 who suggested that. It wasn't you, unless you use 2 accounts in this discussion. So yes, it's someone else that I initially replied to, then you quoted me so I replied to you after, I never used any of those 2 things as to show you have no idea what you're talking about, please, again, understand posts before trying to reply to them. 5/8 events of T1+T2 TBM. Didn't try it in TDS / Cotf raid events. Anyway, as Maedhros said, this spell is quite situational and quite far away from what other classes got. My main problem with the spell here though is the recast, a 24 sec recast would make the spell usefull while the mana wouldn't be that bad still.
Or you could wait for the answer. You're also omitting the fact that I do agree this spell needs to be changed (and explained how / why). You're more interested in twisting reality to show only the negative side. That's not how you will make things change. Being reasonable that the spell could use some work but isn't worth deleting (and no, it wasn't you that said so, in case it has to once again be repeated) is a better way to go.
This thread should be dead already. The spell is horrible; it costs way too much mana and too long of a recast to justify using for what it does. I can find 12+ other ways to spend my mana more efficiently while Im waiting a minute to recast a spell I don't need more agro from, a weak group heal I could splash heal way more people with and save the 8314 mana. Not to mention when your in a pinch and need something fast and your waiting for that awesome recast as a Paladin long reuse spells are a no no in most cases.
So you're not using Grief line of spell either because of the long recast? Those fast cast spells are there to save you, if you need to be saved more than each minute then there's a bigger problem than the spell.
Interesting that once you get your reply you switch topic, guess you were not there to discuss afterall.
yeah, I got my replay, sure did, ummm hum, and switched topic. You won.... I won't post another thing in referrence to any quote; mis-quote; or confusing WTF thing you posted.
Dichotomic There are also more raids sprinkled throughout the rest of TBM as well — 15 raids in total according to the dev team. To help players master and subdue this content, there are news spells as well as new AAs. There is a new progressive spell for each class. These spells are, in the words of the devs, very much focused on the core of the class and are very useful and powerful abilities, abilities that grow even more useful and powerful. As players progress through the content, these spell increase in ranks, all the way up to rank six. http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/03/e...se-the-broken-mirror-expansion-november-18th/ Now unless this spell will one day actually progress and be OMG good its still not worth the 8k+ mana / recast time. The sad part is we all know the Dev will not pop in and say here was the though process behind this particular spell and try using it in this context, if it doesn't work send me feedback. Maybe it would function properly is things like raids were tuned properly and they intended Paladins to be insta yanking adds or snap agro on the nameds...but healing people at times is a fail mechanic, mana drains and so on. Currently some events even in the group game are just forced to break the mechanic and over DPS through the event to not deal with bad / broken mechanics in the script to win. Sometimes you want healing, sometimes you want agro and other times you want to stun the life out of your target but honestly all 3 in one was not a good idea to begin with. Not often are you wanting to roll all 3 into one and we have several options for each of the three choices in spell and AA form. Patch should be in before the end of the month so maybe something will be done to this spell to make it widely desired. Then again they also have Holly quoted saying...
I agree with nightops. At least for me, on a raid, or group content, every spell slot is highly prized and carefully chosen for that specific target/zone. I cant find a reason to put Dich stun in my line-up. For one, we have other utility for those, "oh moments", Hand Of Piety and reflexive righteousness, or LoH depending on the moment and situation., and the lingering heal effect from those AA's make those most logical for instant group heals, usually, that buys enough time to hit with a splash or group heal.and sucks up no mana, and requires no spell slot. 10 minute reuse is good enough. For aggro, Beacon and hallowed Lodestar has mostly fixed our AE aggro issues and shield flash, buys the right amount of time to activate defensive disciplines and abilities. I would be most interested as well in seeing how a top ranked paladin would justify or rationize that as a plus to the Paladin class. I am open to ideas. I would much rather have grief and sorrow up, consecration, anything else, besides our Dich stun.
I would much rather add, Force of ardency for its HoT effect+aggro instead of Dich stun. For special assignments, you dont need to really change your line-up from a healing stand point. Why would you? Shield Flash, and our recent additions in the aggro abilities, is enough for quick grabs, or transitioning from offensive to defensive. Why would Dich stun be more desirable then adding admonish or consecration or force of ardency? Especially with mana drain being so prevailant on raids this expansion.
Define top rank? I don't think anyone would picture this spell as a must have anyway. I do think though there are some uses for it and it's pointless to list spells with a cast time when my point (since you quoted me, I guess you're talking to me) is that this spell is instant (so not like Force of Ardency, not like Admonish etc...). No cast time means no interrupt aswell (since all the examples people can portray are kiting it seems), I'm not sure what you face during your gaming time, but I do encounter several mobs at once and a lot of push quite often. In this situation I want a reliable way to be healed and make sure I make it, all of that more than each 10 minutes, I would not consider Group Heal or Splash a reliable option to heal myself either.
This.. I use the spell on occasion, I have gobs of mana though and its rare if I go completely oom but if I was a group geared paladin, I would think twice. I also wouldn't be looking to tank very often were that the case. I just think it's an overstatement to say this spell is an altogether loss / negative; it's not great but it's not the worst I wish the reuse timer was lowered. It's stupid and frustrating. I hope that there is some great end for leveling it up that helps to justify the negatives. Also If it's supposed to be some great pally core skill sandwich spell where is the undead dps component?
Don't get me wrong, the spell need quite some work to match the level of usefullness the other dichotomic have but I believe repeating over and over all the flaws this spell have while denying it has any good side will not give any motivation or even ideas to rework this spell, if devs were about to do that. Trying the spell and finding in which way it's usefull, and then giving out ideas on how to make those area even better, may give a better incentive to have this spell changed. Asking to have it removed has just no point, if it was to happen, it would be no guarantee to get a replacement and some people would just lack this tool for some situations: nothing to gain out of it and I'm against that.
While nice it works for that it also says your taking on to many mobs to reliably live. This spell is not a filler to reliably over come multiple mob push and heal yourself reliably. The Stun part is nice.... The Heal part is nice.... the Agro part is nice.... None of the above three are great. Instant cast is the only great part about it. We are talking over 8K mana per cast every minute once you can use it = not all that good for what it does when you already have alternate options that refresh faster and cost less mana to use. Now if say ours when cast totally locked agro and no one can peel it off us I would say its a great or amazing spell for the mana cost and recast. Would be great if the class could get told what its final state is supposed to do or be...will it improve from level 1 or stay meh once you get it to level 6? Will the refresh timer be reduces as you progress it? Will it cost less mana to cast as it approaches level 6?
