TOTC accounts for maybe at most 4% of an SK'S overall healing BTW. TOTC could cease proccing and I doubt many SK would even notice.
TotC was a solid ability, that's why they killed it a couple expansions ago SK's can't have nice things they are evil. Long time ago healing was kinda close between the knights with SK heals being more passive and Pally heals more active.
All I hear is "blahblahblah - I agree they should make TOTC (and BOL) an instant cast, 30s reuse AA, 20-25s with full hastened ranks or something"
You are in luck so do the Devs. All pally and and SK stuff needs to balance out, except of course the things pallys do better.
So much warrior jealousy. Warriors are entitled to tank raid boss better than knights, it’s in the class definition, especially the brutal raid boss It’s not cause your guild don’t use warriors in raid that knights shall get survival boost lol, that’s not our problem. Also, those that link NTTB as a very good tool, NTTB makes you take more damage versus the brutal raid boss, and is counter productive. Brace for Impact + Shining Bastion is the way to go for brutal raid boss. I don’t think that Defensive Proficiency was made to counter the 36 % defensive disc knights got. Defensive proficiency was the answer to the assload self healing stuff knights can produce, and yes I’m happy that I can now MT raid boss under Defensive Proficiency as good as a knight using his 36% defensive disc, and better than a knight using the 2 other smaller discs. You ask also to have as good agro as warriors. No thanks, you keep yet agro well enough, maybe paladins shall get an agro boost on single target agro up to SK one, but atm all 3 classes can keep agro well against any dps class if you play it well. Hybrids aren’t “entitled” to have all the advantages of their parent class, else it’s not a “hybrid”. The group game, yes you are certainly not in a worst shape than a warrior, I have some raid geared knight guildie paladin friend that in T3 TDS zone don’t use a healer merc and is able to self heal alone the dmg he received on trash mob. He pops a wiz merc instead, whereas a warrior needs a healer merc in his group, whatever raid geared he is. Also, think of group geared warriors, before Defensive Proficiency and NTTB, they were terrible compared to knights of the same gear. The gap has been closed for them now, and group geared tanks are equal. Mitigation between all tank class is well balanced atm, be it in raid or in group.
JW aren't you in some crappy mid tier guild? Have you ever tried to hold aggro off a wizard/necro/mage burning for 300+k as a knight. The Gap has been more then closed. Also Defensive proficiency is more powerful the harder the mobs hit, so naturally in raids it would be more powerful then in group content (on group geared toons, who have less AC, so they naturally take higher DI's anyway) Also In this series of threads no where did I see any knight say "i want to tank raid bosses equally as well as warriors" I think most of us were saying "we want to be able to survive the length of discs" Not get a natural 20 round on us and have to pack it up 40 seconds after Deflection drops. And I believe I asked for HP not mitigation. 2 entirely different things, for entirely different reasons. An increase to aggro and survival during Discs. If you can't see the value in that I am sorry you are so short sighted.
Uhh, no, it's really not. Mitigation is completely skewed in a warrior's favor right now. Not saying that's right or wrong, but shield stance totally changed the balance, just like unholy guardian did previously. There should be some kind of happy medium. If you want to argue that an overwhelming mitigation advantage is the proper offset to decent to good self healing, that's another point entirely. But if mitigation were balanced Knights could last longer than a minute or two on most arx bosses. Right now we usually don't.
So comparing a stance to a 3 min disk shows any amount of equality? Its not worth any effort to even make them sound comparable beside the 3 min its active. Can Warriors use some better disks, I'm sure they could but need to be careful how they are packaged. After seeing how the stances work yes they are a great improvement for Warriors and no reason a lesser version could not be passed down to knights. Warriors should be the primary tank but a Knight should be able to step in with proper support and effort and not get rounded through that 36% disk or our next 2 lessor disks. I don't think Knights are saying make us equal, we are saying it should be more difficult for a Knight to tank the Boss, but we should be able to fill in competently on a fair amount of them, probably not all. Knight tanking should require more healing and use of disks. Currently depending on the mob after the Guardian Discipline is used your really rolling the dice if big ugly will round you. Agro is a whole other story and Warriors are way ahead of either Knight.
Can knights stay alive yet for some short amount of time versus TDS raid boss ? Yes sometimes under their 36% defensive disc for 2 min at least Do warriors stay "reliably" alive versus these brutal raid boss ? No, even under our defensive disc, raid boss can wipe warrior easily, and under defensive proficiency it's the same Do warriors stay alive better than knights versus TDS raid boss ? Yes, but it's the class definition. Warrior focus on the Raid Boss, Knight focus on Raid adds. Can you fullfill you raid add tanking role in TDS ? yes, a smart playing knight will stay alive versus these adds, even if adds hits are brutal. If you want to tank Raid Boss better, main change to a warrior.
Lines like Just getting old and adds nothing constructive. TDS boss mobs and adds can tear through any tank fast if your not ready and even still if your under disk and take a bad round. Comparing a disk to a stance is way out there because the duration is not even close. The reason the Guardian Disk was so different for Knights is the way it mitigated damage vs our previous disks. It showed how much more efficient using that version of mitigation is. The reason its now Knights #1 def disk. OK, I can say that is a more traditional role, but there are times when Knights do need to step in and either tank it or kite. A Knight should be able to use Mantle or some disk below Guardian and hold the mob for that 1-3 min until someone else can take it, but you should know how effective that is, even when Warriors are trying to tank swap. Basically its becoming in some minds Warriors are the hero and if they die sorry you all lose because other tanks are not allowed to come close to our tanking ability for 3 min max. Making sure Knights can fill in effectively for Warriors 1-3 minutes at a time when using disks is not going to take the tanking crown away from Warriors. Side affect of this could be when the warrior goes down it allows you to get rezzed, buffed and some endurance before taking the mob back. Also allowing knights to fill in short term so Warriors disks are refreshed allowing better rotation / survival for Warriors. I don't think your completely against a Knight being able to tank a raid boss its a matter of how efficient they should be able to do it and for how long.
From my experience, pals at least can tank any TDS boss for 1-3 mins. People underestimate the power of heal effectiveness buffs for both wars and pals for boss tanking. What people don't understand about war vs knight balance is opportunity cost. The benefit of having knights on adds is larger than the benefit of having wars on bosses. I don't want to speak for knights but I'd say most knights would prefer their secondary discs to be changed to 'increase melee mitigation' as opposed to 'mitigate melee damage,' even if the % is lowered. This would improve stackability since the latter mod is crowded these days. I also don't get why (some) knights whine about warriors having flash. It's a vital tool that should be expanded to all tank classes simply because it allows clerics to be able to target us. They should be requesting it, not whining about it.
The benefit of having warriors on adds (in addition to the boss), so your DPS can burn the second the add spawns > The benefit of having Knights tank adds. The fact they have less threat of Death overall makes them more reliable. And farming raids is all about reliability. - I agree all tanks should have flash type ability. - I personally think all tanks should have a reasonable amount of aggro. For Paladins/SK this would mean some of our abilities that are used for self healing, would need some sort of hate modifier. because Due to global recast we can't Do both at the same time. < Which if we are going to have our tanking balanced around self healing, we need to be able to do both concurrently. *** Yes i am aware we have "Some" ability to generate aggro whilst Healing (Paladin - Valiant Deflection, SK - Deceitful Deflection, and Minor aggro on lifetaps), it isn't enough for today's game and the sort of hate output DPS has, unless the content is trivial. - I think if we had our viediscs changed to % mitigation That would NOT be reasonable, because in combination with our self healing it would Recreate the problem Warriors had with Knights in VOA - COTF. Although something should be done with them in general to improve them slightly. Both Warriors and Knights should have some sort of activateable (well you guys do but its on a forever and a day timer) Threshold rune, to mitigate severe damage spikes on a shortish recast timer Something like Shield of Fate, Incoming Example Shield of Faith/Shield of Warrioring/Shield of the Dead Slot 1: Absorb 20% of Spell damage on hits over 30,000, Total: Somethingreasonable Slot 2: Absorb 20% of melee damage on hits over 30,000, Total: Somethingreasonable Have it be on say a 5 - 10 minute timer, with a reasonable Expectation of it surviving 1 minute (for knights) and 2 to 3 minutes (for warriors) As far as I don't know about your guilds warriors. But we have had ours 1 tank bosses (RELIABLY) in Arx1 - 3, and have pretty favorable results with minimal to almost no Swapping on Arx4. Arx 5 is the only one where even warriors have alittle trouble. < Which they should, the raid is supposed to be hard. And by 1 tank i mean obviously well past the duration of any discs, and probably past most of their secondaries. A smart warrior can tank adds as well or better then a knight (other then MAYBE a distance tag, but due to Arx zone size... There isn't any DISTANCE tagging) So if you can do "OUR" job as well or better, I find it unreasonable that you think we cannot ask for a slight survival increase and aggro increase. To the point where we wouldn't even be "equal" we would just be better equipped to do our job. To reiterate: No one here is saying "zomg i want tank boss better than warrior" If they set things up in an appropriate fashion, it would not give us any more power in the group game. (Hence the threshold rune, with a high Threshold, etc) If they wanted they could work in some caveats to our existing abilities or future abilities, so that the changes would improve Raid survival and not group, if that would be the point of contention. 1:
Where has one knight whined that wars have flash? I've seen multiple wars, on multiple threads, say knights should get flash or a weaker version and request for it, including this one.....I give props to all these knights and heal crews supposedly living on TDS bosses for the full duration of holy guardian/unholy. On bosses like Calix, I've personally never made it through 35% of it's duration and that's with popping once a day ability like armor of experience. It'd be cool if our other disc were changed to ''increase melee mitigation'' as you said, but honestly that isn't even a concern for me personally ATM, I don't know about other knights. What is more a concern for me is expecting to get one rounded, even when I'm in ''full'' disc and not lasting any where the duration. I can live with expecting to die when my main line of defense falls agaisn't the tougher stuff in game. I don't think knights in pretty much full TDS raid should be getting destroyed like that in full disc/survive mode
Warrior aggro is broken on boss fights, or any 2min+ fight. This is due to Phantom Aggressor (which has a 1 min reuse time.) Using it once is big aggro, but using it a couple minutes into a fight is massive aggro. Using it more than ~5 mins into a fight it seems to hit some sort of aggro cap. Regardless, this is all due to the fact doppleganger aggro is broken (hi rogue pets too.) Phantom Aggressor is weakest when used early in fights (since it's a max of 50% of total hate) so it isn't an 'aggro win' button on quick add kills like it is on bosses. The only other hate ability we have that's arguably overpowered is blast of anger, which is 36k hate with a ~1min reuse time. On adds, warriors probably do have an overall aggro advantage over knights, especially on fast spawns like you say. But it's not broken in the same way our aggro on bosses is. I'd also say SKs have a special advantage on mezzable adds due to no-damage AE aggro, and pals have an advantage on non-mezzables due to heal aggro (granted, that may be counter productive aka get you killed in some situations.)
Heal aggro does not have the same effect it once did. Either they've changed some of the coding or how things work along the way, or other things have changed for other classes. I haven't seen a paladin get "OMG Pounded" by it in along time. Although i've seen that happen from Wade/Rage combo used un-intelligently.
You want to be taken seriously when you say raid boss destroy knights and that warriors reliably tank brutal boss mobs for 20 + min (aka you don't need more than 1 warrior in raid lol) ? The reality is that it's possible for a warrior to stay alive past his disc, if he uses no survival stuff while defensive disc is running, and use his survival stuff while under Defensive Proficiency and Stout Defense. I have yet done it on some TDS raid boss. Defensive Proficiency force is to allow us to fill a gap when defensive is not up. But once you used your best secondary survival stuff one by one (Anguish BP, Warlord Bravery, Warlord Tenacity)and defensive disc is not back, you are pretty left with die lottery playing on you It's "possible" but in no way a "reliable" way, and in no way one warrior can reliably tank whole Arx1-Arx 4 alone lol. Raid Boss in TDS have been made to be tanked by warriors, who are the raid boss tanks Knights can step up on some TDS raid boss, more reliably than some try to describe it (especially paladins).
