I'm a raid geared Paladin and I'm not sure about shadowknights but the other paladin's in my guild notice it too that since they "fixed" shadow knight ae hate etc, our ability to clamp down agro has been reduced drastically. I keep like 4 to 5 hate spells up in a rotation when tanking since I started over 15 years ago and never have I had a ranger, rogue or any other melee gank agro from me as if I'm just auto attacking. If anyone else has had issues please say so. My team can't be the only one
Should have probably made this in the Tank channel, not the hybrid. Take a look at this thread for your answers: https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/tank-aggro-since-tds-release.214927/
Paladin actually have more initial hate than SKs unless SKs use their Voice of Thule AA buff (which can target anyone). Per lucy, in order of hate, all separate timers: SK - Disgust R1: 7851 AE hate SK - Terror of Narus R1: 7827 hate SK - Terror of Poira R1: 6604 SK - Impose for Power R1: 5152 hate x2 Pal - Force of the Darkened Sea R1: 8263 hate + stun Pal - Crush of the Darkened Sea R1: 7924 hate + stun Pal - Lesson of Grief R1: 6271 hate + AE stun + 2 DDs Pal - Crush of Povar R1: 6166 hate + stun + 3 DDs Pal - Impose for Honor R1: 5200 hate x2 Pal - Force of Ardency R1: 4132 hate + stun War - Tormenting Shout R1: 11106 hate + 1601 per tick War - Insult R1: 10379 hate War - Phantom Aggressor R1: 7599 hate War - Cyclone Roar R1: 3527 hate Stuns still do more hate than their hate override value and it is easy to prove on a permarooted mob with an SK, Pally, and Enchanter. I did this with a dev in a beta long ago and the conclusion was basically "it's too messy to try to fix". Pretty sad that a hate only spell is less hate than a stun.
Which they cast on themselves in all group content. Which does not last long enough to matter IF an SK buffs a Paladin or Warrior in the GH (I've never had that happen, not ever) and the Paladin or Warrior goes out with their group to adventure for several hours. The reported hate above needs to reflect who has VoT and who does not (unless Daybreak adds a VoT potion to the PoK potion vendor. Which SK's shouldn't mind at all since we are told (falsely) Warriors and Paladins have available since SK's can cast it on them.)
Xanathol, That's false, not sure but you didn't break them down by timer so on most its a one or the other for Paladin, that is why we are loosing agro in some cases. You either have to stack your line up with 4+ agro spells and a disk or other classes will take it from you. Lets don't forget Paladin have to be standing still to cast our spells also. Pal - Force of the Darkened Sea R1: 8263 hate + stun = timer 5, 12 sec recast Pal - Crush of the Darkened Sea R1: 7924 hate + stun = timer 5, 12 sec recast Pal - Lesson of Grief R1: 6271 hate + AE stun + 2 DDs = timer 6, 24 sec recast Pal - Crush of Povar R1: 6166 hate + stun + 3 DDs = timer 6, 24 sec recast Pal - Impose for Honor R1: 5200 hate x2 = no timer hate over time, 1.5 sec recast Pal - Force of Ardency R1: 4132 hate + stun = timer 3, 30 sec recast = 29,066 and more than likely no Voice of Thule As far as Pal - Lesson of Grief R1: 6271 hate + AE stun + 2 DDs I have not seen an AE stun and as a class we have been told no over and over to an AE stun. If it does probably very small radius and or crappy resist. SK - Disgust R1: 7851 AE hate = no timer, 30 sec recast SK - Terror of Narus R1: 7827 hate = no timer, instant cast 6 sec recast SK - Terror of Poira R1: 6604 = no timer, instant cast 6 sec recast SK - Impose for Power R1: 5152 hate x2 = no timer hate over time, 1.5 sec recast = 32,555 hate not counting Voice of thule and don't forget Voice of Thule AA buff.
Oh come on guys you guys forgot the best ones, SK AE AA Agro's and Spear for sk and FoD for pally oh and where is your marr's for pally. also your gonna want to use deceitful over disgust, I don't know the last time I memed that spell. Right now if a pally and SK go head to head without marrs/VoT they are going to be bouncing agro if they really wanted to. edited to add, you also don't need 2 terrors when using deceitful either. The main point is, now all 3 classes have the ability to hold agro over the best of DPS if we all use our spells and AA correctly. If not, then you will have issues. There is no reason to care about what another tank is doing agro wise as long as you can do everything you want/need while maintaining agro. If another tank is in group and is fighting you for agro, let them have it, and switch to dps. If they are DPS'ing and you are having issues, you need to work harder because you can keep it over any of the other tanks if they are not trying to out agro you.
Was just using what the individual referenced and the fact they stated they were all on different timers and that was completely false. Take recast and the ability to cast agro on the move into account and it makes a difference. There are a lot of spells / abilities not listed that are better used. And like you said if some knot head wants to fight you for agro let them have it and either tank something else or wait for them to go splat because they want to try and keep agro on to many mobs.
Paladins do not go head to head with a Shadow in single target aggro, even if the SK does not have voice. Paladins do not come remotely in the same stratosphere as a SK on multiples, even if the SK doesn't have voice. With voice, SK's can produce 100k aggro in FIVE seconds on a single target, while doing a large amount AE. This can be done fairly consistently. Despite what Shadows will try to lead you to believe, this matters greatly. That is one of the ''many'' reasons you see so many Shadows running around in the world of Norrath in comparison to paladins. You know, it does matter when dps classes can unload their dps abilities quicker due to an SK's vastly superior aggro, thus making the mobs die quicker(this is important in raid and group, rather ''most'' SK's pretend it is or isn't).
LoL Seld, if your group is needing that kind of hate then you are killing mobs in <30 seconds and thus sk cannot sustain that kind of agro, now they can sustain about 40-50k per mob if rotating agro correctly and can AE agro. A pally can sustain 35-45k agro and reduce the agro of other. If you have having any issues at all, please talk to your fellow Pallies, they will teach you how to do it. As for AE, I think everyone agrees that Pal need a bit more help there, you need to quit trying to bring up something that everyone agrees on like its a point of contention.
Lol, 1% of game or less has the dps capabilities of my ''main'' group. I've gamed with the same main clique for over a decade across many different platforms, so I easily understand the way we play when together is an extreme rarity. My only point is and was, a tanks primary role is tanking. Producing aggro is relevant to tanking. When you're with certain classes of a certain skill level, being able to produce more aggro as a tank matters greatly. Shadows and Paladins are not head to head in single target hate generation. Add in voice and it isn't even a remote contest. Vast aggro superiority on a single target mob in comparison to a paladin is now a niche SK's enjoy over paladins for first time in history of EQ. Please consult with your fellow guild paladins and group with them outside of raids if you feel otherwise. Ah never mind Sojero, pretty sure you were the guy saying your guild has nearly no paladins. Guess there is not many for you to be consulting with/seeing in action besides your paladin bot. O_O.
Wasn't a bot, The pally I play with is my wife (though she has now changed to a wiz). Seld you can try and deny in your mind what I said, but facts are facts, and we all can add numbers, agro / time, they are head to head. but the fact still remains, its doesn't matter one bit as long as you can keep agro over DPS classes, and all 3 tanks can! as you point out, you keep agro over the top 1% so what does it matter after that?
Sojero, last week, my ''main'' group accomplished what we all deemed was the most challenging feat we've pulled off in any mmo. That was defeating pre-nerf cleansing the grounds anniversary mission(2-4 groups game wide or less beat that I think, I know a RoI group definitely did also). On the win, I had a choice between going with my paladin, warrior, or shadow. We won with my Shadow, could not have been done with my pal in her place. I most likely could have done with my war. Speed of aggro(instants on the run) etc. all matters when your pushing limits and capabilities. You can claim it's neck and neck aggro on pal vs shadow if you want, but you'll never post any ''factual'' numbers showing so. It'll look much like Xan's ''false'' factual numbers. It's fact an SK can produce 100k hate in FIVE seconds, on a single target mob, while doing a great deal of AE aggro. Honestly if I really wanted to get technical, more than that and it can be done fairly consistent. A paladin isn't touching that. RIP to your wifes paladin and one of the last ones your guild had. My husband main switched from zerker to wizard beginning of this month. No one wondered why .
Post your non VoT #'s and show how a pally cannot touch a SK? Sun/crush - 8k FoD on cooldown 15k un modded Valiant - 6.8k Stun/crush - 6.2k * I know there is something else to throw in between valiant and last stun/crush, just cant remember what it is atm that adds more, to tired * 36k hate Normal SK group agro terror 7.8k hate EoH or EoS - 5k hate (45 second recast - one per mob) or HA 18k 1 min reuse - only use 1 per fight spear - 10k hate lace blade - 4k on cooldown - 1 min reuse so usable once every 2 - 3 fights - not even sure of the actual agro on this, just going off what Sirene states deceitful or dire - 9k hate - * this also means using dire as a agro tool and not a healing tool, which I personally do not do* so your looking at best - 49k more common - 36k more sustainable That is 36k hate and is fully sustainable without using any of your other abilities thrown in without any mods all within the same time frame as the sk examples you bring up, those examples are also modded, thus right around the same, without the mods, and FoD is on a much faster recast than HA is, though I cant remember what the recast of FoD is off the top of my head. No one is saying that SK cannot produce those #'s, the thing is you cannot look at them in a vacuum, they have reuse timers, and thus that can only be done once a minute at best. Also yes that mission is an example of where an SK shines, you can also do that one with a bard, ranger, or any other class that is good at rounding stuff up. Go to a stunnable and/or undead area and you will see where a paladin shines, picking one offs is not the best way to make your point. also if you couldn't do it with your war too, might wanna go learn some of the tricks with them
we can also keep it on a pally 100% of the time or war if in a group, you can also keep marrs on your group 100% of the time, albeit with a bit more effort, but that is the life of penitence that a pally must endure
You truly are a queen amongst players. This was your sk alt with raid gear, even though you're a paladin main? Asked before and you purposely ignored. Which server/guild are you in that accomplished this? Did see Qulas mention they beat it prenerf, am curious which others pulled it off.
Only if you are in a group with them, I doubt many people do 2 tank groups , and if you were buffing both would probably be pointless (high speed groups should always prefer the SK for more AE aggro) Each SK can only give VoT to 3 total toons (for a raid, including themselves), I don't think most guilds go equal paladin, sk, warrior to be able to do this Marr's you can keep on your group, but it's 20% vs 72%
Because 72% agro mod is not important or significant? Now lets take your lowly 36k Shadow Knight agro and add what another almost 27k because of Voice of Thule now your hitting around 63k agro. That's still probably not your best and most efficient agro rotation.
