There's been a lot of "hate" thrown back and forth here lately. This thread isn't meant to help continue it, but I would like to throw an honest opinion out there. I don't Raid.I chose the warrior class because at the time they were the premier meat shield, they didn't dps well, had practically no buffs,the only thing they did was keep the other members of a group alive. This is what a warrior should always be, and should be the best at it. We need the tools/abilities to accomplish this and I believe that's where the Devs should focus for our class. Some of our tools are over powered, some are underpowered and some are hopelessly broken. I believe this is true for all the tank classes. I'm not sure how many nerfs I've been thru and how many more will come. I do know they've upset me in the past and I'm sure they will in the future. But to be 100% honest not a single one has ever truly made any difference at all in the big picture. It may take an extra 15 seconds to kill a mob, I may need a few extra heals to live thru that named fight, my endurance/mana bar my be a little lower than normal but the end result is always the same and difference getting there is almost unnoticeable. I think all three tanks are very different, and should be. That's why you choose one over the other. Warriors have no Mana, cast no heals, cast no buffs, can't FD, we don't do any extra dps because a mob is undead, no inviz, no lev and the many other things SK's and Pallys can. And we should never be able to, ever. So I don't think it's unreasonable for there to be things a warrior is way better at than the other tanks. The desirability off all three comes from their differences. Please don't use this thread to fight and call for nerfing of each other, but do feel free to comment with your own opinion.
I agree with the theory of what your saying, but I do think a certain baseline of parity within an archetype is not an unreasonable expectation either to accomplish an archetypes primary objective. Especially when content design is built around a particular method of doing things, or that method is hands down, far a d away the best strategy. Those whose benefits fall outside the scope of current content design are then either left twisting in the wind, or they have to fight to get back to relevancy in the modern game. Coupled with radical changes to long standing abilities or a complete 180 in some cases, while issues get swept under the rug creates bitter players.
Went out the window when all melee and warriors started to use yellow mana. Which they cast yellow mana spells and buffs from.
Kallitank. I think where things start to fall apart is the other side of the things you mentioned. No extra dps to undead, no feign death, invis. So it's tough to find out where the differences should be. Warriors should tank better then, probably. But how do you quantify that? Unparalelled mitigation? Ok, but we've got to balance it so that other tanks can still tank, without making it ezmode for warriors. What about that shadownight/paladin who tanks weaker mobs without any support because of their downwards scaling abilities? Should they still excel there? Just some food for thought
Have you actually tried to play all 3 or are you just seeing the greener grass. From what i can all 3 are perfectly viable and no one wants to go back to tanks only being a meatshield that auto attacks. Really dont see where you are going qith this thread other than, maybe you should play tlp server where being basic is fun..
The differences between tank classes should be small but very well defined. I don't want any of the three to be overall more powerful than the other two, just to be noticeably different. I believe warriors should mitigate better, paladins heal themselves and some group heals with a few desirable group buffs, I feel SK's should be the dps/puller tank. Again these are all just my opinions and I'm sure it's an extremely difficult job to keep all three tanks relevant but decidedly different. I don't have a solution to fix any of it, I just know calling to nerf each other isn't the way to go.
Always gotta be someone feeling the need to be rude, I was expressing my opinion on why I don't think all three tanks should have all the same abilities. And yes, I believe they're all viable as well.
The problem with this paladin idea is that its only useful in raids. In the group game, who cares if the paladin can heal/cure the group. so can the healer, but 10x better. The SK and War both bring more damage and better agro, more utility(SK) to the table, while the paladin only has something useful in raids. This leaves a paladin as the second class tank.
It has nothing to do with being rude. its pointing out the fact your feelycrafting the other tanks with no real support behind your claims. You just want things to be catered to you and when someone disagree's you feel attacked. Its called debate, discussions, "its my opinion" (throw it back at ya).
Also, have you played ANY of the other archetype groups. they ALL have a ton of common skills/aa, maybe its got a different name. but in the end it only creates a base module for the archetype and there is uniqueness with them all.
Bards are still waiting for Hail of Arrows or Tempest of Claws common ability Jokes aside (well not really they could use a button or two to stave off boredom) Exactly what you said, within a defined archetype there is a good bit of overlap amd should be since every class in that archetype functionally speaking performs the same role. Glaring differences (massive 1 tank mitigation, complete heal, etc) make certain choices undesirable. Coupled with the fact design has been simplified and dumbed down at the players request. Where those old differences that mattered become irrelevant examples: Paladin Pacify, SK FD, almost any kind of CC/pulling, curing ability in the group game, the ability to dispell, all that stuff that used to matter has become undesirable because it really isn't mission critical outside of raids and maybe 1 or 2 named an expansion.
I've played warrior and SK, and I know they ALL have similar abilities. I'm pretty certain you're not understanding what I'm talking about.
It has everything with being rude, pretty sure no one else has agreed with me and that's cool. I'd be surprised if everyone's vision of what the classes should look like mirrored mine. However you're the only one who saw it necessary to throw in a rude little addition to your comments. Not worth arguing about, I'd simply like to see all tanks be viable and fun to play. If just like for them to have a more defined specialty and different ways of accomplishing the same thing. That's all I was trying to put out there.
Where would you like to improve the Paladin the most? What changes would you make? I've never played a Pally so I know the least about em.
1. Agro: War and SK both have awesome AE agro. Its so strong that a paladin using single target agro has a hard time keeping agro on 1 mob. If an SK or a War wants a mob a Paladin has (excluding agro locks) there is no way a paladin can ever compete. 2. Damage: Excluding undead, paladin damage is seriously lower than sk/war. People often say that is because a paladin has group heals/cures, but those are meaningless in a group (and a healer has 10x). One thing I don't know is for undead, does a paladin tie SK, or significantly surpass them in dps? I'm ok with a SK being the better damage hybrid vs paladins. But honestly that should mean paladins are flat out the better tank. Raid group only utility does not balance out a SK doing the hugely increased damage they do over paladins (again on average thus excluding undead), plus the ease of agro an sk or war have with agro.
1. No they aren't meaningless. If Paladin healing is meaningless, what is SK healing, which is far less & self only? I've had Paladins main heal me on group named and on some raids... 2. Between damage avoidance / mitigation, healing, and dps, dps is by far the least valuable of the three. 3. In a group setting, all three tanks are fairly equal but if mobs can be stunned... In early EQ, SKs were better undead dps. Once slay came along and particularly when the SK undead nuke line stopped, Pallies moved ahead.
SKs don't heal others. Paladin group healing is meaningless if you are not raiding. I think ALL paladins would trade the ability to push a heal button 3 times per expansion in group content for everything SKs have.
Hold on a second here. You can reroll. We have some issues right now and some things to moan about, but I don't need or want FD, nor would I be willing to trade shackles for snare, and certainly some of the other things we fought hard to get. Maybe that's just me though
