Not cool.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Derpyderp, Sep 17, 2016.

  1. Derpyderp Journeyman

    In order to DPS effectively (versus the past, anyway) beastlords are now required to maintain these two/three spells on many fights, and sometimes multiple mobs.

    Kirchen's Chill
    1)Decrease HP when cast by 26463
    2)Decrease Hitpoints by 10920 (L104) to 22044 (L105) per tick
    3:Increase Poison Counter by 18

    Mana Cost:7781

    Glistenwing Blood
    1)Decrease HP when cast by 31534
    2:Increase Poison Counter by 18
    3)Decrease Hitpoints by 12523 (L101) to 25250 (L105) per tick

    Mana Cost:9329

    Hemo Epidemic
    1:Increase Disease Counter by 18
    2)Decrease Hitpoints by 8582 (L102) to 17368 (L105) per tick

    Mana Cost:7424

    The only reason the current system works for us on fights longer than two minutes is because of Bard Dicho - I understand the required mana vs damage ratio, but it was created for a time in which Dicho was readily available. This combined with the fact we are going back 6 years worth of expansions to get our best BP focus is getting silly. We have had no AA chats, no Expansion chats, and you have an area where major changes are supposed to be communicated to the player base ( News / Announcements / etc) - I'm not one of those people that's going to say OMFG IM QUITTING OVER THIS CHANGE! I've dealt with the pet change, the melee buffs, watching other classes AoE down entire raids and one shot mobs and kept my mouth shut. Getting ridiculous tho.
  2. MrMajestykx Augur

    frankly they need to learn, the dev team in all due respect, regardless of the class if you wanna BALANCE classes fine, you need to nerf some go for it but seriously to completely bat down and dismantle an entire skill set or disc in one fell swoop is really pretty ridiculous. Can ya ll not tune stuff without completely wiping it out or making it useless?? just curious really
  3. Zunnoab Augur

    The best is if true the outright falsehood that they are increasing the heal when in fact they are nerfing it down to like 5k someone said. Even 50k would be a fairly small heal for a one minute recast. And the endurance portion, which wasn't overkill to begin with, they nerf too.

    It's like they are TRYING to drive players away. The mana portion may have been a bit too much, but this incessant butchering of abilities not just minor tweaks is insane. Every time I'm surprised, I don't expect to be surprised the next time they do it. The nerfing decisions the last year or two have been catastrophically blind as to how players may react negatively or not bother playing, or returning players who may see this going on and say forget it.

    The mana regen was overkill. That much is clear. Basically eliminating it in addition to nerfing the ability in almost every single way other than as a buff is just plain ridiculous. The description of these abilities is that they are supposedly powerful. A 5k heal is not powerful. It's not even small. It's negligible, if accurate.

    There are good things the dev team has done. I'm impressed what they did with limited resources for TBM (after fixing it at least). I'm impressed by fixes to long standing issues and other neat various tweaks. On the tuning front though? I can't think of anything positive to say about that. I like to call it stomping on the fingers of the players or raid forces that are not in the top, just as the next expansion rolls around, making changes that don't affect the top end at all while kicking everyone else back off the cliff so they have to climb back up again.

    If they start nerfing the TBM raids in a targeted effort to kill of strats that are not "just so," I'll be borderline livid. They've been doing that the last few expansions and it is inexcusable, figuratively stomping on the fingers of the players that are not already at the top. Off hand two of several examples are changing Argin-Hiz like 1.5 years after release around one of the expansion launches and making Lucia in Arx extremely more powerful by adding back AEs that had previously been removed just as TBM launched. The former was designed to attack a kite strat I'm not familiar with for Argin-Hiz. The latter however made finishing Arx not even worth it for my guild. Any effort spent to deal with the nightmare they turned Lucia into (she was already a difficult event) was better spent pushing into TBM. They did the same thing again with the melee nerfs too. I'm just thankful we did not use an AE strat to beat the High Bokon. As I understand it, some raid forces were basically kicked out of tier/part 3 with that change until they have to relearn content they already beat. Just STOP that, please.
    Lorai likes this.
  4. strongbus Augur

    can someone please tell me how fixing 2 bugs(the major changes to bard spells) is a nerf?
  5. Kaliko Augur

    It's like paladin dicho now... not worth memming at all and a massive nerf along with lowering what the intentional effects were. Bard dicho was exactly the way it was since beta of TBM and the amount of mana/end/hp it will return now is a kick in the nuts and not worth it every 60 seconds. We have nothing to stand out now other than we're the premiere ADPS of melee groups(kinda).
  6. strongbus Augur

    I can understand the changes to the based stats of the song being called a nerf. its the fixies to the 2 bugs(not using end and hitting for more times then it was ment to) that i can't understand being called a nerf.

    I won't say its worth it or not to use I don't play a bard. But I just don't get calling fixing bugs a nerf.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  7. segap Augur

    If bugs have existed long enough and thing seemingly tuned around those bugs, fixing them without compensating upward with balance is a nerf.
    Vdidar and Sancus like this.
  8. Zalamyr Augur

    You're just arguing semantics. It's both a bug fix and a nerf. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. If fixing a long standing bug also make an ability worse, it's both.

    To be clear, the fact that it wasn't consuming endurance was clearly a bug. It was reported in beta. It was listed with an endurance cost but the endurance wasn't consumed.

    The fact that it triggered a group buff for each group member was not a bug. It worked exactly the way it was listed in the spell data. It was a group buff which caused each group member to trigger a group buff which restored mana and endurance. Now, it seemed likely to most of us that it was an oversight that it was implemented that way, but it was not a bug. You could read the spell data and fully expect the song to function the way it was. After it had been left alone for nearly a year it wasn't entirely clear if they intended it or not until now.
  9. Zunnoab Augur

    The song working better the more people are nearby in the group makes perfect sense so that's an odd one to remove.

    Here is why this is such an incredibly poor decision though:
    1.) They say they increased the healing amount. Reports are not only did they not increase it in effect, it's not a pathetic 5k or something. That's not even a small heal. That's insignificant. The heal should be like 50k and scale to like 100k at max rank to deserve to even be called a heal, and I feel that is a generously low ball suggestion. This is once per minute remember. My cleric can probably put out over a million HP in heals in that time. That may be an exaggeration, but not by much if so.

    2.) They both made it so the endurance cost works AND outrageously increased the endurance cost, as if tuning it around only the top raid players and not the general population.

    3.) They reduced the endurance return, which wasn't even overkill to begin with. Combined with what I said in number one there, that is a DRAMATIC decrease.

    4.) They reduced the mana return into oblivion. When you say an ability gives a large return, that is what it should do. Now should it give like 40% mana back to a new recruit for example? Well no of course not, but nerfing it into oblivion is insane, and again removing the kind of neat amplication effect of nearby group members while ALSO reducing the return in insane.

    It's just all around ridiculous and completely tone deaf as to how poorly of a joke most (if not all) of the players I know think of their tuning decisions the last year or two or so.

    Patches are looked at with a kind of snide curiosity, as "in what good will come to offset all the stuff they destroy this time." No, myself and the people I know that are vocal about the ridiculous shift back into sledgehammer tuning are not a majority all because we are loud, but it does provide a liability to returning players.

    I'm still burned months later a friend and our most powerful necro is still gone over the ridiculous necro nerfs earlier in the year. Have they ever addressed that as they claimed? He said he might try it to give it a chance if they actually address the issues, but there they sit, their dps nerfed into oblivion compared to before.
    Lorai and Toxicaust like this.
  10. Derpyderp Journeyman

    All of the previous effects now have 'caps' you can only gain a maximum amount of mana/hp/endurance - this has been tested and confirmed, the problem with this is you have classes (mainly mana and endurance users that do damage) who have had an entire spell and skill set balanced around the old way this ability functioned. Charging 10k endurance and 10k mana for abilities isn't going to fly anymore. People are just going to end up class stacking or way behind the curve.

    It's going to kneecap several classes.
  11. Zunnoab Augur

    Wait, they are gutting more than just this? What is their problem? What do they have against the mid/low end raid game for that matter, since so many of these changes lately are direct attacks on the ability of lower/mid end forces to function? I mean it's probably not intentional, but it's ridiculous.
  12. Derpyderp Journeyman

  13. Derpyderp Journeyman

  14. strongbus Augur

    Ya. ench tbm spell was almost the same as bards with a few differences. They made the same changes to base stats as they did bard. as well as they changed ench mana drain dot to return a lower amount of mana. I have heard the necro tbm dot now returns a lower amount of life each tick as well
  15. Siddar Augur

    Dicho spells are supposed to be good, After this nerf Bard dicho is just another mana regen song just like the other four bards have, There is no reason for bards to need five mana regen songs that all do roughly the same amount of mana regen.

    Also there was one bug fix and one pure nerf to the song not two bug fixes.
  16. Brohg Augur

    Not quite like those. This one costs 8k endurance…
  17. Critts Augur

    I always heard players saying that Bard dicho was going to be Nurfed for the entire span of TBM. It's pretty sad that the Devs have to scale back abilities in such a way. I did notices on raids just last night that my mana as a wizard never fell under 80% without hitting Mana Burn. So it needed to be corrected but they should have just made the recast longer 2 mins or something.
    Yinla likes this.
  18. Zunnoab Augur

    I keep saying these changes likely won't affect my guild much since we are in the mid tier and not barely hanging on right now. Now I'm worried hearing this is yet another swath of massive nerfs attacking a range of classes. We have a caster team that's been fairly strong overall for us. Now what will this do to them? What will this do to our ability to win the High Bokon fight, much less put time into the final boss? Wither/Decay, which is already outrageously unfair to melee dps, will now become even more difficult if Wither fears the transition too much since casters can go out of mana so much easier.

    This whole thing just makes me sick. To think I thought it was an isolated incident when they gutted so many abilities last year.

    The issue is that they stress in the descriptions that the reward is supposed to be powerful. They make endurance use apply to bards in the song AND increase it to a ridiculous 8k? They make it so the song isn't additive in power when more people stand close to each other AND reduce the mana return? They claim they increase the HP amount while in fact they changed it so it's not really a heal at all anymore, at best not even understanding their own changes and at worst being disingenuous with the patch message? They take the endurance regeneration which wasn't even overpowered in the first place and nerf that too? Nerfing to this point (for more than just bards now it sounds like) and turning abilities that require a decent amount of progression to level up into mere trivialities is outrageous.

    Also on the necro front, what they didn't think they did enough to drive necros away with their patch last winter/spring??

    My tone of post here does not mean I literally think the devs are out to kill the low/mid tier. I just think that's the way the trend is moving with these changes.
  19. ~Mills~ Augur

    Please reacquire your mana from further game play.
  20. Risiko Augur

    Something tells me that the things that were nerfed will some how be re-obtainable in some manner in the upcoming expansion. ;)

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