Non-Raiding Necromancers

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by fransisco, Sep 28, 2013.

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  1. Loratex The Ridiculous Necro

    People with personal vendettas suck too
  2. Cicelee Augur

    I am going to play devil's advocate for a minute, if you don't mind.

    Assume that you go full blast, highest DPS you can do, using all your mana regen tools and so forth. Pre expansion you would run OOM in 20 minutes (I am only guessing, do not take the number at face value) in a group. Post expansion you now run OOM in 12 minutes, hypothetically.

    So for 12 minutes pre and post expansion, you have not changed your play style... your spell lineup... or how much damage you can do in the group. You can still do the same DPS as before, over a 12 minute period of time hypothetically with this illustration.

    Now what has changed is that you have to take a break to get back to full mana, or something close. With OOC timers the way they are, you are looking at what... 90 seconds at the most? Maybe 120 seconds, I am not sure. This would have been something you would also have had to do pre expansion, just at the 20 minute mark. So the presumption is that pre and post expansion, you will need to spend 90-120 seconds every so often to get to full mana.

    One could argue that your DPS has not changed. One even could argue that your DPM (damage per minute) has not changed, if you just look at a 10 minute window. What has changed is the damage per hour (DPH). In the big picture of things, that seems to be the biggest issue- because I have to med a couple extra times an hour, my DPH has gone down. But the next question becomes...

    Is your DPH still better than anyone else? If so, and chances are it probably is, then you are still fine as a class. If your DPH went from 25k to 20k, but the next best class is at 18k... Then I believe you will still have a spot in groups.

    Just some thoughts to consider. I agree if the intent was for mana management on raids, then the change probably does not have much effect. I am just trying to show that besides a couple extra med breaks an hour, you can still do the exact same things as you could before.

    Melee have unlimited endurance with Respite, or whatever it is called now. What if casters had their own version of Respite, same recast timers and conditions and all?
  3. Pyemia Elder

    Yeah. We can't take your numbers at face value...at all. Want a number you can take at face value?

    392

    That's the amount of mana, per tick, that Necromancers lose out of this nerf.

    In the rest of your analysis, you seem to lack a fundamental amound of knowledge about the class to be able to comment effectively. The Necromancer is a SUSTAINED DPS class. We don't nuke...we dot. Our spells are designed to do little damage over the short term, but much more damage over the long term BUT ONLY AFTER WE HAVE PILED A BUNCH OF DOTS ON AND TIME HAS BEEN GIVEN FOR THOSE DOTS TO WORK. In order to stay competitive in a group situation, we need to cast our swift dots and pet swarms. These spells cost a LOT of mana. They were designed that way. In order to SUSTAIN our DPS (because we can't compete with other classes by casting just one or two spells per fight), we must cast often and hard. That means we use mana quickly.

    With this nerf, we are a SUSTAINED DPS class that can't sustain mana useage.

    This is speaking as a former (as of this change) Necromancer with raid gear and almost max AAs.

    I've tried it. We got screwed. Hard.

    Unless this is changed, I'm switching classes. If I don't find that I enjoy that class, I'll quit the game.
    Smallpox and Artemis-Entreri like this.
  4. Pyemia Elder

    BTW, I know that I said that I'd quit and cancel my credit card so that I wouldn't pay for the expansion. I didn't do that. I honestly thought that SOE would listen and do the right thing. They didn't. So, I screwed myself. I should have canceled.

    I'm sticking around right now because my account is still active, and I have friends I'd hate to leave.

    But, yeah...this nerf has killed any desire to play my favorite class.
  5. Battleaxe Augur

    Yep that's clearly a lot of mana per tick. No wonder SOE wanted to make mana a resource Necros needed to manage and did not want Death Bloom to be on you continuously.

    Exactly. Necros are not a burst DPS class.

    Wizards blow through their mana casting fast/high cost spells also. That's what burst caster DPSers do. They do NOT SUSTAIN high burst DPS. In ultra fast groups you cast a budget spell and when the mob reaches 1/3rd life a finisher <- mana having to be managed as a resource rather than being unlimited.

    With this change you are a BURST DPS class in faster dying group content (and still a sustained DPS class vs. slow dying named mobs, and a puller, and a resser, and a ... - unlike Wizards). Not the best class in a swarm group (Warriors aren't either), but viable in group and raid content.

    Clearly with 392 mana given to you per tick and burst DPS you could sustain, but should not have been able to sustain, things were awesome. I wouldn't bother changing classes - I can't think of a single one that was quite that powerful in so many types of content - solo, normal experience group, pet tanking exp group, named mob, achievement group, raids....
  6. Porterz73 Augur

    I must agree, if 100 Necro in group T1 ROF gear is parsing that bad vs a merc over 10 mins post nerf they where just as bad pre nerf.

    The numbers sound highly suspect to me. A Necro basically doing a 10th the DPS of a merc and still going OOM in 10 mins is very tough to believe. Might need to add some details like the following.
    A) what mobs where being killed
    B) how long did it take to drop them
    C) how many AAs on the Necro
    D) Any mana Regen buffs or mechanisms being used
    E) mount being used ( no risk of out agro a merc doing that much damage)

    I can't see parsing those kind of numbers even if the Necro was PLd to lvl 100 and had 100AA with a full set of T1 Baz gear.
  7. Filterx New Member

    Cicelee,

    As a necro we kill things extremely slow but steady. I personally root rot in dungeon areas for the challenge, anyone can kite since it's extremely simple. I have to med after 4 mobs now when I could of killed up to 12 then med. Mind you I'm not going for speed I'm going to efficiency here and I'm a totally group geared necro. I am managing my mana so I can extend to more mobs but it's impossible, I don't have other toons to help me with my mana.

    This post was deleted previously but I'm copying it here while deleting the parts where it violated the rules:

    Whomever says that moving the nerf from 10 mins to 6 mins should be shot. DB shouldn't be touched at all. Devs should know better. Was DB over powered on inception...damn right it was and we loved it. Fast forward to today and it's barely keeping us at an a somewhat acceptable mana level. I still med in todays game so taking this away is just adding to it. I'm a soloer primarily. Yes I still med. While I group and not pull, my guildies kill at a rate that I have to drop my 3 fast dots and two swarm spells. I'm by NO means the highest parser either. I am constantly hitting DB so I don't have to med as often.

    Mid level raiders are going to get hosed here too by the way. The way I figure it when the mid and low level raiders take quite a bit longer to kill so the necro's are going to be hurt here as well. Top end....no question it's not touching them.

    I play the way I want to play, it's my money and my time. To have an entertainment provider strip me of my fun that is not an overpowered ability mind you, I tend to get a little pissed off. THis is my one and only game that I play so this was my one outlet for entertainment in this arena. This is just a ridiculous attempt at fixing something that isn't broken, or worse yet a mask for the dps reduction that you're planning.

    Here's to waiting for the other boot to drop.... /cheers


    Now fast forward to the release of the nerfs... Yeah it's bad. If they're going remove the one thing we did well (extended dps NOT burst dps), we should get our mana cost on our spells reduced by at least half. This is absurd! I'm not buying this expansion so I'll just let my account go to silver or stop playing altogether.

    Thanks SOE.
    Artemis-Entreri, Marton and Noobieguy like this.
  8. Gladare Augur

    It's hard to word. He said the merc's dps was 90% of what the necro did for dps. Not that the merc did 90% of their dps combined.
  9. Sael New Member

    I guess I am not understanding where Battleaxe thinks we suddenly gonna become burst dps with the type of spells we have. Our direct damage spells don't even rival those of other burst casters. To say one class should have to totally change their way of playing without giving them the tools to do it is preposterous. If all of our spells and abilities were developed with DB in mind, then they should all be revamped and their mana costs lowered. Add to all that the nerfing of our dots, and the impending nerf of our epics its just a bit too much to ask of one class. If there were equal cuts to all the classes it would be one thing but this seems to be a witchhunt to lower one class dramatically but leaving others with abilities that are deemed to be overpowered. If you don't think that all these changes are going to affect the chances of necros getting groups then you are just living in your own little fantasy world.
  10. Noobieguy Augur

    It's kind of funny.. I like to hear others perspective about it, but only if they have a clue about our class, or the classes they are comparing us too. Please only comment if you have a clue on what this is going to do to our class, and if you are going to compare us to other classes, have a clue about said classes. That is all.
    Artemis-Entreri likes this.
  11. Porterz73 Augur

    Ahh ok , my bad I was thinking he was saying the merc did 90% of the total DPS and not the merc was doing slightly less than half.
  12. Battleaxe Augur

    "unlimited endurance" - you've been reading caster posts - many of them don't have a clue. They live in a world where they solo named mobs and head up raid parses like its their birthright. It's not like that at all. First off you can't use it if you are in combat. Secondly Mod rods, Clarity potions, etc. don't do anything for us. Thirdly (if you can even break off to make use of it) you only get roughly a yellow bubble - that's essentially Last Stand if it's even up (our disciplines are sloooooow refresh unlike most caster spells) and not much else.

    Believe me - Warriors manage Endurance as a limiting resource. Most classes have ability "fuels" they must manage.
  13. strongbus Augur

    [quote="Battleaxe, post: 3003942, member: 948" They live in a world where they solo named mobs and head up raid parses[/quote]


    When you say head up raid pars for necros I am guessing you mean fights over bout 3 mins. cause if a necro is topping your raids pars on fights under bout 3 mins then your burst dps are not doing their jobs.
  14. Tweelis Augur

    Pyemia....to say you missed the point Cicelee was trying to make is an understatement.

    Here is an analogy using two vehicles in a race across the U.S.A.:

    Necromancers are like a Ford Excursion. Massive, comfortable road warriors that suck gas down like a 5 year old with a chocolate milkshake. They get around 10 MPG on the road but luckily have a 35 gallon tank. It use to be a necromancer would have a tanker truck pull up next to them every 200 miles and refill them while they are puttering down the road at 70mph....hence they'd be able to go from L.A.X. to Ft. Lauderdale while doing 70mph and only stopping when their porta-potty was ready to overflow. Assuming 3 breaks at 20 minutes each the Excursion will take 40 hours to complete this trip.

    Magicians are similar to say a Hennessey Venom GT. It is ungodly fast; hitting 0-60 in 2.5 seconds, 0-100 in 5.6 and 0-200 in 14 seconds. If cruising at a steady 70mph it'll also get around 10MPG so with a 18.5 gallon fuel tank it'll go around 175-185 miles before having to fill up at a station. Assuming they stop on average every 175 miles it'll take them 16 tanks of gas to complete the journey. Even at 10 minutes per fill up the Venom will require nearly 3 hours worth of stops in addition to driving time. Granted in some places across New Mexico and Texas the Venom will not be going 70mph in order to make up some of the 3 hours worth of stopping time to fill up.

    It's a balancing act the Venom owner will need to take into account (ie, the faster you go the worse your fuel mileage gets) but all in all the Excursion had a substantial advantage due to the tanker truck pulling along side it every few hours. However after doing this race 20 times and seeing the Excursion beat the Venom every time by 2 hours the race organizers decided to "fix" the disparity between the auto fill-up between the Venom and the Excursion. Now instead of getting topped off every 200 miles the Excursion will get ten fill-ups while driving down the road and now will have to pull into an actual gas station five times. While the Venom can in fact go much faster it will require 16 stops at gas stations to the Excursions 5 stops over a long road race. In a short road race (say L.A.X. to SeaWorld in San Diego) the Excursion has no chance.
  15. Pyemia Elder

    Battleaxe understands very little about the class and cares even less. It was just a few days ago that he was arguing that Necros should be mounted...
  16. Pyemia Elder

    The point using a completely fictional "hypothetical" data (that has no bearing on reality) and a lack of understanding of the class to form the analysis. Nah...I got it. Better than you, apparently.

    An extremely contrieved car analogy. Wow...I see the light! A 392 mana per tick nerf of an ability that has been in place for several years WAS warrented! :rolleyes:

    I would go over it again, but I have absolutely no confidence that you'd get it.

    Let me give you an analogy in return...

    Sissors and paper are alright, but rock is completely unbalanced!
  17. Miklo Elder

    This proves you havent a clue to what youre talking about Battleaxe. NO AMOUNT OF MANA INCREASES OUR DPS. WE DO NOT HAVE ANY TYPE OF BURST.


    DoT's are DAMAGE OVER TIME ok Battleaxe? What part of that do you see BURST? There is no BURST in DAMAGE OVER TIME. In ANY setting.

    Youre commenting on a class that you dont even comprehend. Death Bloom doesnt give the group/solo necro BURST DPS. It's people like you that caused a nerf like this. You talk about things that arent even factually accurate. We've have tried to explain it to you int he simplest possible terms and yet you STILL dont get it.

    It you must comment on this thread, talk about things that are FACTUAL.

    For instance. This kills the group necro because our class and its only way to do damage is through DoT's. In order to do any noticable damage, you have to stack dots until the mob is dead. Now if you did your homework, youd know what that means and how much that costs. They created Death Bloom because they chose not to spend the time to try and fix the underlining issue. Death Bloom patched their mistakes and allowed us to continue to play in a group setting.

    NOw because of people like you Battleaxe, who know nothing about necromancers but who MUST speak out, we're being nerf'd back to our state prior to Death Blooms release which like before, even more so now, will effectivly kill off the group necro.

    Forget about if you have the right classes that this nerf wont hurt so much. The perfect group is so rare now that it could be called a myth. This game has changed so much, because of people like you Battleaxe, that there is no more dependency on well balanced groups to get stuff done.

    This community has done a fairly good job in proving what this nerf is and what it accomplishes. Eli , Piestro, and the rest of SoE wont come here and tell the truth about why this nerf is happening. Their goal isnt to mess with mana, its to mess with our damage on raids. But like you Battleaxe, theyre totally oblivious what reality and they arent hurting the raiding necro. Once they realize that, guess what will happen?

    Because they refuse to actually do any type of work, like actually going out on raids and seeing exactly how wrong the info being provided to them by people like you Battleaxe, this nerf will continue and further push this game towards its end.
    Dre., Vivamort, Smallpox and 3 others like this.
  18. Tweelis Augur

    Pyemia

    You're a few years behind where magicians were during Planes of Power. Ya see, back then magicians had a way (some people even called it a cheat) to go from out of mana to full mana in under one minute....this was before out of combat regen was in game. When I had raid buffs it would take me (and other mages) around 5 minute to go from OOM to FM under normal circumstances. When our ability/cheat was fixed all of a sudden we had to med like all other classes. My (and other magicians) solo/group/raid DPS suffered like you wouldn't believe....much like necromancers today. It took awhile but we collectively talked about it on the mage boards and figured out what we could do with various things to make things better for the class. We never got back to where we were before the nerf/fix but after awhile our mod rod vendor status was removed and we became a viable DPS class again.

    I'm seeing a lot of complaining both on these boards and the necro boards but so far nothing has shown up as to how to best deal with this and what things the players might change to make the best of an apparently dooming situation. Have you or others you've talked to discussed what tactics you can change to improve your situation? If so they must be locked behind closed doors where people like me can't see it.

    Here's a little bit about why I'm concerned with this change/nerf/fix/whateveryoucallit. My best friend in game plays a necro main. He and the rest of my fellowship peeps are dam nice people. He's admitted a few times that our fellowship and guild/family are the only reason he plays EQ. The DB change has discouraged him even more than others things in the past. If he quits EQ for something else (he's discussed a few options) I fear the rest of the fellowship will follow him. While I do have other friends in game to hang out with EQ would not be the same game without him and the rest of my fellowship. Although I don't know the nitty gritty details about this change and how to play a necromancer I can (1) sympathize with your pain and (2) do what I can to help out to make things better for my friend and the rest of the necro community. And believe it or not I do find reading the necro boards entertaining. If half the membership (or even say 2-3 key people) there left it would get really boring quite fast. I don't want to see that.

    Stealing a quote that applies here (hopefully won't get removed for copyright infringement or something like that):
    Guinan: "When a man is convinced he's going to die tomorrow, he'll probably find a way to make it happen. The only one who can turn this around is you."
  19. Sinestra Augur

    You don't have a clue about Necromancers either, but it doesn't stop you from filling up the thread with babble.
    Smallpox and Artemis-Entreri like this.
  20. Pyemia Elder

    No...you're just coming in late into the conversation without doing any kind of research. I've said at least 4 times how I think the nerf should have been handled. This is the latest post I made on it: https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/why-all-the-complaining.204153/#post-3002603
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