New Shawl Nerf is Clownshoes

That proc rate seems off by about a factor of 10 from the parses I did with the pre-nerf raid shawl. The first cast number is for pure casts, the second counts twincasts, since it's possible to proc twice off a twincast spell.

6.0 cast = 68% (3037) proc rate over 4,444 casts (Granitebark Blessing Rk3)
3.75 cast = 37% (1677) proc rate over 4160 casts/4494 lands (Sterivida Rk3)
.5 cast = 21% (720) proc rate over 3404 casts/3601 lands (Vivification Rk3)

I know the percentages can be off a bit from rounding and RNG, but it's not going to be off by nearly that much. And Vivification totally breaks the scaling model unless 20% is the floor for the proc rate.

Because it averaged out to reducing the mana cost of all my spells by about 100 mana. For classes that can't just push a button to regain 10k+ mana, that made a huge difference in sustained fights and exp groups. This nerf reduced the effectiveness of the procs by 30-40% for me during raids.

Don't know the specifics of proc rate or mana return from before and after but the overall effect is seems to be close to a 50% reduction in mana return. Far cry from an improvement as explained.

All of your examples are wrong because procs work a lot different than you expect. They work like this:

1) All procs are added together into a master proc rate.
2) A virtual die is rolled and if it hits, you proc -something-.
3) Each individual proc is weighted according to it's own rate, and a new roll is made to determine -which- proc will fire.

Example:

Proc A = 10% rate. Proc B = 8% rate. Proc C = 6% rate. Proc D = 5% rate.

1) All procs are added together to give a total proc rate of 10+8+6+5 = 29%.
2) A die is rolled 1-100. If it hits 29 or less, you proc.
3) A new die is rolled. If it hits 1-10, Proc A fires. If it hits 11-18, Proc B fires. If it hits 19-24, Proc C fires. If it hits 25-29 Proc D fires.

Note that this is probably not 100% exactly how it works, but you get the general idea.

Additionally, when you Twincast/Twinheal, they both count as a cast, which means you can get double procs from it. When you cast a spell that triggers another spell, this also counts as two attempts. (This multiplied x54 with MGBs is the cause of the change to the shawl in the first place).

The criteria to proc a shawl is also very very broad, which means it is possible that there are more procs from things that we don't expect to be able to proc them.

I don't understand how any of what you said invalidates any of the 2 prior posts with spellcast data in them. In the original post I was wrong about the original proc rate so yes, those numbers are wrong, but you cast X number of spells, You take the number of casts and weigh it against the number of procs, it seems pretty strait forward to me. While narrowing down the actual proc rate of the shawl isn't really important now that we've determined that the proc rate wasn't lowered. I'm testing right now and the proc rate appears to be unchanged so we're back to the spelldat changed being the culprit for the horrific mana return rates post patch. The actual important point of this thread is the effect it had BEFORE and AFTER the patch, when it was suppose to be an "upgrade" but I don't even care about an upgrade I just want the original proc back I'd continue wearing the old shawl if I had to and never even get the aug.

My numbers are from parses with no conflicting procs, since I was determining if adding an additional heal triggered mana return proc was worthwhile and needed baseline numbers. My two innate procs, GoM and Copious Healing do not block/conflict with shawl procs.

The druid group skin is not a unity spell that multicasts, I can only get 1 proc off casting it, no matter how many people it hits. And in the parse it was only landing on one target anyways.

So basically, what you even trying to correct and how does it pertain to the shawl mana return nerf?

Axxius and whoever else was talking about proc rates.

Your innate AA procs would not conflict with the shawl. Worn procs, spell procs, and AA procs are calculated separately and you can have one of each per spell cast.

The reason for the reduction in mana is well known, I'm not sure why you are even discussing it as if it wasn't. The proc was changed from an instant 250 mana back, to a 1 tick proc of 125 mana back. Chandrok assumes we will get 2 ticks from a 1 tick proc because of "phantom ticks." Whether this is true or not remains to be seen.

Even if that was the case, because it is now a HoT (MoT?) anytime you get a double proc from Twincast or a spell that triggers another spell, one of them is completely wasted. Any time you proc, and then immediately get a second proc from your next spell, your first proc is wasted, (or half wasted) because the second proc overwrites the first proc.These are the reasons it gives less mana back. It isn't a secret.

What you want to test to see how much less you are getting, is 1) how often you get double procs, and 2) how often you proc a second time within 6 seconds of the first one.

Casting one spell over and over again is a pointless test for anything unless that is all you cast during actual gameplay.

My proc rate post was to get people on the right page for proc percentages since people were posting misunderstood spellparse readings from 80% to 2%. Which are so far off from actual values as to ruin the discussion. I could probably dig up some numbers for proc rate with druid heal weave while using shawl + hammer, but that wouldn't be very useful and no other druid has even posted in here.

Within 6s can be a straight up waste, within 11s can be half value (You understand why, I don't need to.explain it to you). Without having a sync to server ticks in my logs, I can't really get a better estimate than that. From the raid fight logs I've gone over, it's a 30-40% reduction in mana return between those two. In exp grinds it could be higher because of my spells tend to be tighter for longer periods than the 2-10 minutes of raid encounters where I have more target switching and other issues slowing down casts compared to the easy set spell patterns in grinds.

I will say that I don't know how to check for procs within 6 and 11 seconds and have been going over event parses by 'hand' to get the number of proc conflicts from my casts during those events. So I can't post as hard numbers as I could for pure proc percentages that I could easily pull from log parses.

I remember telling Beimeith and Mykaylla the proc rate was dependent upon cast rate about a year ago, and having them both troll me about it.

Anyways-

As a Ranger, this nerf has extremely slaughtered my ability to sustain my highest DPS possible, given that as a Ranger, while doing maximum DPS, you cannot stop casting. As Rangers are currently the worst DPS class (getting beat by druids when bullseye isn't up, on four minute fights) I've felt the nerf first hand.

While having the Heroic Dexterity from the new shawl is nice, and while freeing up the slot I was linked to was also nice, I would prefer the power be reverted back to the previous state.

Also - Add a way to switch between the augs already. It's amazing this hasn't been done yet. Make it require another tiger pelt if you want, I don't care.