This is my idea for all 3 tanks without changing anything available to us right now. Give each raid boss a Tanking flag :Melee / Magic / Undead Warriors - with an aa would get more mitigation on Melee Flagged raid bosses while using a shield then paladin and sk But would deal more dps with a 2-hander on Magic Flagged raid bosses. Sks - with the same aa would get More mitigation with a shield against Undead Flagged raid bosses and with a 2-hander would deal more dps to raid bosses flagged melee. Paladins -Would get more mitigation using a shield tanking Magic flagged raid bosses but deal more dps with a 2 hander on Undead flagged raid bosses. To make sure warriors don't rule all in terms of tanking also make us have less mitigation while tanking the wrong flag mob but make it still doable but harder and the same for the other 2 classes. This would give all tanks a chance to shine in terms of who gets to tank what boss on each raid we would all have a job depending on the event . We would also have a chance to shine in terms of dps on the opposite events that we tank. And we could also have a job on adds or whatever you want on the raids where it doesn't have our flag for tanking or for dps.
You'd give up your raid tank superiority to other tanks? I guess it might work if then they found something for warriors to be superior in group wise.
It's not really giving it up it is letting everyone that tanks have their days where they can excel and feel good about being a tank they could also set more raids for warriors if they want or even do a set amount of raids with the Flags per tier and the rest not having any flags at all. But they are going to change things anyway be it our discs or your discs because the only way to make it hard is to make it almost too hard for the other tanks so here is a solution.
OP the problem i see with your idea is plan and simple wars are and always should be the best class at tanking raid named. sk/pally are for off tanking in raids. I know that there are sk/pallies out here that can and have tanked the final named in a raid. The war should be the one that is the 1st pick every time.
It's a nice idea, but without making the warrior class viable again, you'd basically be giving away the only advantage warriors have left. Knights donot do bad tanking raid bosses at all currently...but they usually have roles to fill that warriors can't, so warriors tank the boss.
Yes warriors would need a boost in the group game only if they were no longer the raid tank of choice. SKs don't do much according to them other than kite and off-tank though in raids most often.
i dont seewahts wrong with his idea, gives a REASON to have each tank type on raids. and as he said, they dont have to make all bosses 1 of the 3 jsut some. just like only some raids require chanters, or cures (hello pally splash) this gives a reason for all tanks, toher htan just the leftover duty of offtanking (which all tanks can do at any time) andk iting (which anyone can do period regardless of class, they just dump it on sks generall ybc we have no other draw specificly for raiding) hell they made mobs itnended to be tanked by casters, why not mobs intended to be tanked by knights? they alreayd took those RARE occasions away from us when they gave wars fearless too, its not like there's any good reason not to put this ins, on SOME mobs not all, as a eason for all 3 classes to be sought out and brought along, rather htan jsut "flavor" as many have noted for sks, or splashes and stuns that pallies often get relegated to.
Warrior group tanking should not be held hostage over the raid MT role. Group and raid roles for tanks need to be balanced independently. SK raid utility is an entirely different discussion. I think the first win would be increasing the debuff cap. I don't like the OP's rock-scissor-paper idea personally. There are ways to make a mob favor certain tank types without necessitating a flag to check tank class and scale DPS appropriately. Besides, Paladins already do plenty of DPS on undead mobs. I wouldn't mind seeing a few more of these.
As long as they balance both issues at the same time I'd agree. If they do what they normally do with all balancing and fix one issue and let the other sit for months or years, then absolutely not.
I have to disagree again. I wouldn't want SK raid utility held hostage over Warrior group tanking improvements either.
remember when knights were fully immune to fear and warriors were not? Thus making knights the preferred tank on mobs that feared? That's what you are basically asking for here. It makes no sense in current eq. a boost to a class and tank interchangeability is hampered by ideas like this. You don't fix warriors by carving out a niche, you round them out so that they do more and fill in more gaps. This is why knights are so valuable on raids they go beyond their niche and supplement other aspects of game play with various forms of utility.
Regardless of anyone's feelings, it is the pattern of the dev team to not do things at once. If they fix one, most likely they will leave the other for months or years. It needs to be done all at once. Leaving one group with little to no role in the raid and group game is a recipe for disaster.
how would this leave warriors with little to no role in teh raid game? they ahve no "little to no role " in group game either theyre still just as good of a tank in groups as anyone else. if you need a tank you dont say well idotn want a warrior cause they dont have the extra cool stuff, unless you need a tank AND a puller or a tank AND a healer or whatever..then you might pick another, but a tank is a tank in the group game. in raids however pallies and wars both have key reasons to be actively sought out, sk's do not. im not referring to better or worse players here, on an even playing field there is no erason to pick an sk over a war or pal in a raid for either MT or OT, plain as taht. having a variable like this MIGHT give such a reason though, without killing hte reasons the other 2 are alreayd there. what's so wrongwith that? no one's saying every raid either, jsut a couple here and there. 1 raid in a tier thats better if an sk tanks 1 raid thats better if a pally tanks. wahtever...but overall the majority are still going to be better with a warrior tanking. period. what is so bad about askign for a REASON to bring all the classes rather than alienating one of the most determined and hardworking communities from the part of the game that requires the most work? this idea doesnt alienate anyone, it creates a reason to be inclusive for classes taht generally are NOT needed. if yo uahve a pal and an sk on the bench which do you pick? assuming equally geared aad and skilled, you take the pal every time, bc they can do many other things (as is in antoher thread tahts more about fun stuff) you dont pick the sk for flavor..they can add flavor in guild chat lol, you dont pick the sk bc soemthing might have ot be kited..its not somethign sks do better than anyone else its waht we get delegated to bc we have nothing we do better. having a mob here and there taht is better tanked by a different tank class is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. this simple idea could quell the struggle between the class 9sks) and devs over raid utility all on its own. we jsut want a reason to be there other htan we're just that good )individually) and so and so isnt, or theres a slot still open you can come. Everyone lieks tanking or we wouldnt make tank classes either, so making something that individual tanks would be the preferred tanks rather htan teh backup last resort tank..is good. for sks for pallies, and for wars. as it is wars are always the preferred tank assuming theyre geared for the job. what is so wrong with making SOME opportunities for the "other tanks" (i say that bc so many peopel say tank and simply mean warrior, they dont even count sk/pal as tanks...um..) to perform in the MT capacity aside from as last resorts.. and only soemtiems not ALL raids, why does such thing strike so much fear into the hearts of warriors? youll still be the tanking gods on raids for 95% of the events in existence. you cant share 5% with your counterparts?
If you've been reading the thread and the boards, there are some who believe there is no reason to choose a warrior over a knight in the group game as knights are vastly superior in the group game. I did not voice my own opinion on that. Giving them a leg up over knights in the group game while still not fixing the desire for a SK in the raid game would be a problem. That was the very clear point I have been making. Not sure how you could have missed that.
not talkign about givign a leg up to knights over wars in raids, jsut makign situations wehre we do ahve an advantage. warrior superiority on raid bosses is not situational, it just is what it is. making SOME situations wehre sks or pallies are preferred is not hurting warriors whatsoever. in the group game that already exists, particularly on mobs that silence. warriors arent left out in groups because of their lack of pulling ability or splashes. they may not be teh BEST tanks in all situations in groups..and hoenstly theyre jsut as good for tanking itself, thus they are not at a disadvantage to TANKING in groups. knights re at a disadvantage to tanking on raid bosses, period, and there is no event , anywhere, that an sk or pally is the preferred main tank. period. in the group game, there are such mobs for wars, certainly. before wars got fearless there were raid mobs taht knights were preferred but that's gone. it jsut seems to me that warriors want to be the absolute gods of tankign in any possible situation in the raid game AND they want to knock out the other tanks in the gorup game too, so theyre mad that theyre not always the ideal perfect choice. they can still do it, they can tank every group mob that is intended to be tanked at all. period. raids are far less forgiving though so theres no situation in todays game taht sk or pal woudl be preferable. NONE. do you see the point here? theres nothign wrong with havign SOME times wehre a knight is a better choice. itsn ot like guilds are going to boot all their warriors and use only knights and farm jsut those couple events, but theyre not goign ot want ot jsut skip those events ratehr than recruit more knights or bring some off the bench more often.
And when raids that dictate using no cures (meaning no SPLASH ATTACK~ by paladins), we're just just auto-attackin' fools or plink heals on someone. Warrior tanks, no splashes, we knights are just two cogs in the wheel of DPS. Our raids in HoT use shadowknights to pull and kite, mostly because they can pull sort of like monks, but can tank/deflection and survive and toss decent aggro from a distance at the same time. PS - I'm the cat
