New races?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Kindaaniel, Sep 2, 2015.

  1. Reval Augur

    It's hard to say this because I genuinely have a lot of respect for you, but I disagree and I think it is defeatist.

    Now I do disagree with a lot of people's ideas, but going right to calling 40+ ideas stupid is also pretty much defeatist. Don't paint me out to be some Jiminy Cricket, but making a game out of ridiculing them publicly for their ideas is also defeatist. People aren't going to post their ideas in fear of being ridiculed. So you're closing that door. That's defeatist. Some of their ideas are probably good. Let's dig into this one idea hat that I quoted and I'll try my luck.

    I did a search on the boards for epic, and epic 3.0, and forgive me for saying it, but I couldn't find any posts about them, so I couldn't find a reason why that was a bad idea. I can tell you why it's a good idea. It's because epics are awesome. They're freaking awesome. I haven't had an item like an epic that I could equip and I thought "this is amazing" since the epic 2.0, and I don't even have an sk, wiz, shm, bard, or cleric epic (which to me are the best ones). 2.5's really didn't do it for me, they didn't improve the gameplay for me in any realistic way and so I didn't bother.

    I'm a human being and so when something is awesome at the base level, I'm going to think that it's awesome. I'm not going to be scared that something that I think is awesome will always have some caveat that makes it impossible, or that other people might not think it's awesome. Maybe they'll show me a reason why it is bad and I'll change my mind. In contrast, the post that you are defending uses logic that can be said about any suggestion to make it "impossible". That's what being defeatist means to me, and that's the exact sort of environment "too archaic can't do it" brings about. I thank you for actually posting a reason, and I hope you can see why that makes a difference in how I and probably many others perceive this sort of thing.

    Feel free to post why 3.0 is a bad idea if you'd like, but if it's not truly impossible to code one in, I think the idea is still an idea that has value. Even if it is just class specific drops in a raid, some of that stuff was the stuff of legends, like the enchanter slow stick from PoTime.

    Is there a sticky post somewhere, even on a different forum, where these common ideas are shot down with reasons that really fill out the issue at hand instead of just saying 'too hard can't do it'?
  2. Numiko Augur


    it's all art assets and code...nothing more, nothing less....

    who knows maybe the "core changes" they are testing on test today will make it possible.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  3. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    And they added many new races to EQ. Look back at what EQ started with.
  4. Mayfaire Augur

    Here's my thoughts on Epic 3.0.

    They have said it isn't going to happen due to the enormous amount of time it takes to design a different series of quests for every single class. I agree, that sounds daunting.

    Why not just have one series of quests for all, and the end result is the achievement pop-up that results in your specific class weapon?

    Yes, I know that was a bit like the Rof weapon, but I think if you make the Epic 3.0 very specifically related to the epic journey one must take in order to achieve their ultimate weapon that only their class can use, and you make it a very difficult journey that requires you to bring friends at times (maybe up to a mini-raid size for the last quest), well that will seem a bit more "epic-y" than what we had in Rof.

    Edited to add - they should make the weapon relevant (best class weapon) for at least 2 expacs (or 4 campaigns). Which is why the series of quests should be tremendously difficult to complete and take quite a bit of time.
  5. Beimeith Lord of the Game


    And this idea is not new at all. And the answer they ALWAYS give, for the 234980234 time:

    1) If everyone does the same quest, it's not really very "Epic" is it?
    2) Epics by their very definition are supposed to be the best items in game, above and beyond normal items which mean people will use them a long time...and they don't want that.
  6. Beimeith Lord of the Game


    ...Seriously?

    Let me put it another way.

    A skyscrapper is designed to be a certain height based on the materials used and the engineering of the time.

    You can't just add extra stories on top of the Empire State Building because you think it would be a good idea to make it taller.
    Crystilla likes this.
  7. Mayfaire Augur


    1. Meh, I thought doing Plane of War was pretty "epic" by its nature, and we all (those of us who did it) had to do the same quests to finish it.* The epic part of a quest line like this would be how hard it is and the amazing weapon at the end.
    2. Well, who is "they"? A lot of "them" have been laid off or fired, so who knows what the current crew thinks?

    *omgah, call it Plane of Epics haha! :D I keed, I keed...
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  8. Reval Augur

    I realize that the stance I'm taking here is convenient; if they don't end up doing something, it's because they didn't try and/or were not good enough but if they do end up doing it I was right. But despite that particular annoyance (I've been on the other side of it before, naturally), and despite the unfavorable light that it shines on me, I still stand where I stand because I think it is the right place to be.

    You mention how "impossible" it would be to add a new race. I don't really want a new race, that's not my goal. Why are you saying it's so impossible when from my understanding the same thing has been done for inventory space? I also provided a potential workaround, and even if that were to be infeasible, there is probably a smarter way to deal with it that would make this task much easier. You compare it to something that really would be unsafe currently, but in reality it seems to be something that inventorily has been demonstrated as safe (I know inventorily is not a word, -50 dkp for me). Sure, say that it would take too much effort. That's fair and makes sense, but it isn't impossible. Being honest in this way promotes healthier conversations. I realize it was an analogy, but you are talking about a skyscraper being unable to be made taller when a different skyscraper under the same limitations was already made taller.

    You mention that they don't want to make long quest lines for classes or have gear that's relevant 3 expansions later. Well, who knows if that will change or not? People aren't set in stone. They could change their views. Maybe they'll want to reward people that are in it for the long haul with something like an epic again some day. They've gone back on their word in this particular sort of arena in the past.

    I'll tip my hat to you in that some of the best, most productive people I have met have been pessimists (especially in the field of programming), and I'll smile at the irony that it is these same people that usually end up doing "the impossible" later on. No matter how much I disagree with the outlook you are supporting, I think you're alright. Thanks for the work you've done on the parser. I know someone with my outlook and attitude could go back and forth forever about something like this, so I'll do us both the favor of letting you have the last word if you post again towards it. I hope that if you read this thread, the conversation pushes you towards a slightly less pessimistic, but still very productive direction.
  9. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    I didn't say it was impossible. I said it won't ever happen. Now if you want to be pedantic about my using a word that leaves no possibility of a chance, fine, I'll rephrase: There's a 99.9999999% chance they won't ever do it. If you really want to cling to that .0000001% chance and say "But it's not IMpossible!" be my guest, but there is a certain point where for all intents and purposes a thing is so improbable that it becomes functionally impossible.

    I'll give you an example: You may have heard that given enough time a room full of monkeys banging on typewriters would eventually produce the full written works of Shakespeare. Technically this is true, it is NOT, in fact, impossible. But the length of time needed exceeds the entire history of the universe as well as the entire future of the universe, (until the Heat Death in 10^100 years), so it is functionally impossible.

    Now I'd say there is a bit more of a chance of us getting new races/classes/models than the above scenario occurring, (if I ever win 100 million+ dollars I'll try and get them to do it) but my point is such that the chance of it happening is so remote that it is for all practical purposes 0, but go ahead and be pedantic and let us all know that the chance isn't 0 because its really.0000001% instead!. (Not going to lie, I like that word and don't get to use it often enough).

    Also you failed to understand my analogy. I said a change of this magnitude would likely mean rebuilding it from the ground up. To use my analogy: You can't add more stories to a skyscrapper. If you want a bigger building you have to demolish the current one and build a new, bigger one. THAT is what they did with the inventory system. They had to completely rewrite it, and everything in the game that has a hook into it, and there are STILL bugs with it. And that is just to make it -possible- to add them in. That says nothing about the time required to -actually- add them in which they have already said would take years.

    "But if they did it for inventory, they might do it for this!" Not really. It is a completely different situation. The inventory limit was becoming a major problem for players. The game had become so large (100,000+ unique items by the time) that it was becoming a severe hindrance to the playability of the game. It needed to be done for the health and future of the game. That is absolutely not the case with playable races or classes or character models.

    TL;DR
    It's not going to happen. Ever!
  10. Ravengloome Augur


    When you said Red mage i instantly flashed back to 8 bit theater.
  11. Koryu Professional Roadkill

    I found this shining gem amongst the Red Mage quotes:

    "I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will."

    If that doesn't describe the EverQuest boards, I don't know what does.
    Sheex, Mayfaire and Iila like this.
  12. Mayfaire Augur

    [IMG]
    beryon, Beimeith, Sheex and 1 other person like this.
  13. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    A community majority vote should allow mods to force that amazing quote into the signatures of the worst offenders, sorta like a democratic form of the prison server, along with a forum avatar of Shrek, for the good of the nation. Discuss!
    Mayfaire likes this.
  14. Iila Augur

    I should be able to spend SC Daybreak Cash to give people obnoxious red titles as a warning.
    Sheex likes this.
  15. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    Another thought: I'd pay DBG 500 sc per forum troll to auto collapse/hide their content and replace it with customized text.

    Turning a Millsblade necro crusading, thread derailing text wall post into "Please click here to expand Mills text wall #1236737" would be totally worth some DBG moneys.

    In return other users could do the same for me with a "please click here to expand Sheex whiney sarcastic meme ridden comment with an obscure Simpsons reference #12257837".

    Win-win!
    Iila likes this.
  16. Reval Augur

    You know you'd just make NotSheex.
  17. Jyve Augur

    [IMG]
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  18. Reval Augur

    You've really god a knack for that lol

    That's the best one I've seen today.
  19. shadowgod Augur

    A new race and class would require new animations and models for that race. They just don't have the resources for it. What do you want 15 raids or a new race because that is the trade off less content.
  20. Reht The Dude abides...

    I'l take the next 3 years worth of content please..........
    Reval, Spellfire and Iila like this.