Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Time Burner 2, Feb 18, 2016.
Lol yeh saw that.
Sojero & I have this conversation a lot. Sustained means always there, can always count on it. What you guys are referencing is dps over time with cool downs - that's average dps, and a bit different.
I am with Raven, sustained means throwing everything all the time, of course waiting to maximize abilities together if it means more overall dps over time. If you are holding things back then your sustained hurts because of it.
We could always come up with a slew of qualifiers to DPS just so that everyone is on the same page.
Cd_a=All cooldowns used
Co=Combined(number of mobs)
D=Duration of parse
D75_45=Duration of parse (duration player did damage)
That way we all know exactly what someone is talking about so you can more easily disregard someone's comparison of BrAiCd_a7Co12D75_45DPS to another class's BnAnCd_pD85_65DPS.
That's like saying wiz shouldn't use Tc every time it's up because it should be saved to burst when needed and can't be factored into sustained dps or necro robe click.
What you are actually calling sustained is auto attack because you can't include spells by your assertion as you can't always count on them or your mana for that matter.
Semantics aside... You click things every time they are up.
I am in agreeance with Xanathol not removing burns and sustained dps away from each other is Average dps because it is the average of burns and normal sustainable dps overtime. If you do not separate them there is a million and one things that could factor together and be equal to comparing apples and oranges. When I look at sustained I do not count my burns at all or anything else I can not keep up almost 100% of the time. Auto attack dps is doing nothing at all . You can select all fights you burn on in gameparse and combine them to get the average burn dps and you can do the same thing for average sustainable dps.
The problem I have with not including everything in sustain is they give you many different discs to use on different timers and many don't stack (now more do) so that you can pull out higher dps for longer periods of time. They also give abilities that are on the same timer so that you have to choose for a short hard burst, or a longer higher sustained.
Take an sk for example.
You can do a melee burn, then a caster burn, then reinforced malaise, then harm touch, and thought leech as you need it, and then you can do another mini melee burn without carmine and on and on.
If you are not including those, you are not giving then real picture of what a class can do over time. Heck no class is balanced in any way based on their auto attack alone, so who really cares what you can always have up, its what you don't always have up and how you use it that defines the class. hello mana burn and furious rampage!
Not saying that at all. There's a difference between what you can reasonably expect to use vs every mob, what you can use to maximize your dps on a single mob, and what you can average your dps out to over time - there isn't two categories to look at, but three, and all are different and meaningful.
For instance, if you have to burn you cool downs for whatever reason, what can you expect to do on the very next fight, no / little downtime? For an SK, that's melee, pet, procs, lacerating, and for now, a few DoTs and/or lifetaps (the upcoming changes threaten to increase the mana cost to take DoTs away, but we'll see when we get there).
That's your baseline dps and everything scales up from that. What you can do over time as you guys are pointing out is important too, as that is your average, spreading things around. And of course, we all know what a burn is. All three of those are distinct and meaningful and need to be looked at when comparing classes.
To be clear, that was Shield Topple. Here's why I think that's the best solution for that particular disc.
Shield Topple shares a reuse timer with Calculated Strike (<20% only.) These are really our only endurance-costing activated DPS abilities, so this line really needs to be useful. I don't see them nor want them to make it a 1160 on demand strike, I prefer it to be broken out so RNG plays less of a factor.
Calculated Strike (<20% only): 2H Slashing Attack for 1160, 35s reuseShield Topple (L83 disc): 2H Slashing Attack for 302, 15s reuseProposed combined CS + Shield Topple upgrade: Buff that procs 4 x 2H Slashing Attack for 302, 15s reuse, no silly < 20% requirement, no bonus if used < 20%
You may be thinking, since that's a much shorter reuse time, it must be a big upgrade. Thing is, the first strike we got in 2007 was - Opportunistic Strike rk3: 2H Slashing Attack for 845. Calculated Strike was already a heavily stagnated line. They clearly haven't paid much attention to this disc line.
Is it just a mission of all you goofs to get this thing to 100 pages at this point? Can't believe this thread is still going.
We're severely lacking in memes, though. Of *that* we can all agree, and find common ground!
Moar meme Plox sheex. BTW sheex I am gunna make a run to Warrens on Drinal, check parcels for surprizez.
Except Opportunistic Strike also had the <20% stipulation. They didn't give you a high damage hit - they gave you a high damage 'finish him' hit. I'm not saying I am for or against your idea either way, just that your representation is a bit skewed; your idea would be quite an upgrade.
Instaclick darkness rods are awesome sauce.
Hang on .. Wait a sec you can do 6 burns ! And I mean seriously wait a sec brb running to DQ to grab a reeses blizzard .
I said "< 20%" 4 times in my post. Reading.
Shield topple DPS is negligible. Even calculated strike DPS is minimal, especially since the S&B strike nerf. Giving it a 300% increase isn't as big as it sounds, and the end cost is a thing (at 800+ end a pop, this wouldn't be close to sustainable.) This in no way would be a significant DPS upgrade, just would be nice to be able to convert end to parsable DPS.
Lets put it this way. If I don't use heroic blade on a burn, I can tell immediately from the headline number. If I use Heroic blade but don't use shield topple or calculated strike at all, I wouldn't even be able to tell from the total slash damage if I even used these discs; that's how small they are in comparison. I was dramatically lowballing the amount it should be upgraded to; in reality, it should be radically higher. I was just basing it off of existing (underpowered) discs for purposes of discussion.
we have 2 burns, we can just space them out to not waste them all on one mob. reinforced malaise doesnt stack with our other stuff well, so its purely a sustain tool. Thought leech is how we get mana and endo back, but its a nice hit as well, but not really used for its hit. also you notice that i said we can use stuff not together to get sustain for longer/use more times.
Hope that blizzard is good, sounds yummy.
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