New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Time Burner 2, Feb 18, 2016.

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  1. Makavien Augur


    That is kinda funny since every warrior here has asked to do one single thing better ? And that single thing has been mitigate?
  2. Kantan New Member

    I think the point some warrior's are trying to get at is warrior's are one trick ponies, all we can do is "tank." That's it, outside of our ac/dodge song buff, imperator's and 2.0 we do absolutely nothing else for the group/raid. We're much like wizard or berserkers, who basically dps, with a side of ports, decap/warcry like warrior's.

    If wizard's/bersrekers sacrifice about everything to do high damage, than a warrior sacrifices about everything to be the best tank. If every melee/caster dps class did top dps and had all their utility, was the best group/raid dps plus but a bag of other things, what would be the point of playing a wizard/berserker?

    So either we go the warrior's are the best tanks because all they do is "tank." and they're a one-trick pony, or if all three tanks can tank as well as each other than warrior's need some utility. If a paladin/sk can "tank" as well or as close to a warrior plus paladins bringing cures, heals, group armor, spire and sk's bringing 2.0, certain taps along with both knights now being able to be ramp tanks giving them another "utility."

    Than why would someone bring a warrior to a raid? If a warrior tanks at 100% and has 10% utility and a knight can "tank" at 90+ percent of a warrior plus bring tens of percent of utility than why would anyone bring a class that is worth "less?"

    That's all I think some warrior's are getting at. If every melee/caster did wizard/zerker dps and had all their own classes utility, I think wizards/zerkers who can't do much except "dps" would feel shafted.

    P.S. I'm sure some smart guy will say "Necros!" "Enchanters!" "Rogues!" "Rangers!" so I'll say it for you.
  3. Mistatk Augur

    This is 100% right, but even if right now whoever works on this stuff decided: ok paladins are the warriors who can heal, SK are the warrior who can dps and debuff, So warriors will the the warriors who can.... it was all they could do to copy/paste stances instead of fix anything properly, there not going to design out a whole new category of utility if one even exists and balance it and tune it and give it to warriors. And, if they were going to go that route, it would have needed to be done BEFORE giving away warrior mitigation to the knights. The whole thing is just a flat out disaster. And, I kind of get the feeling nobody cares at DBG. As I've said repeatedly, if they will make a podcast telling you that they won't rush out an unfinished expansion, but then they do exactly that, obviously they aren't super concerned with these little details. Heck, maybe they see it as more profitable to push everyone to EQ landmark or just progression servers, or who knows. Sometimes its very hard to distinguish between conspiracy and incompetence.
  4. Warpeace Augur

    Yep, 30% full mitigation up 100% of the time was balanced when only one of three tank classes had it.

    But what does Mistatk say OMG they gave Warrior mitigation to Knights....DBG didn't think it through, broken promises....

    Having 1/3 the mitigation of the other two tank classes on 100% of the time never seemed odd to any of you Warriors crying here? But now its shared its so unjust.
  5. Kamea Augur

    I have a serious question, don't expect a serious answer, but I'll ask it anyways.

    How much mitigation do you guys think paladin heals are worth?
  6. Warpeace Augur

    Serious question how much mitigation is DP worth while not having to burn a disk?
  7. sojero One hit wonder


    As the damage per hit and the avg hits per round of the mob goes up, the mitigation value of heals goes down. Heals have cast time and GCD times, so you calculate that vs the max hit of the mob/hits per round, and see how much that reduced the round. Usually against higher hitting mobs its 10-20% mitigation. I reduce it to 5-10% on any mob that can 1 round you, because it cannot do anything against those.

    On the flip side, if you can out heal the mob that is attacking you, IE weak grey/green mobs, I give it a 75% +.

    In normal challenging group content I would give it a 20-30% because of interrupts etc, and most non raid geared cannot tank and keep themselves healed in current challenging content (ie Enslaver of souls group mission in group gear).

    That is a really hard one to find the pulse on because of player skill, gear, AA count, and many other factors.
  8. sojero One hit wonder


    I would say its worth 30% mitigation and 15% shield block :)
  9. Makavien Augur


    Please tell us what you actually think DP changed for warriors ? Healers still need the same steady stream of heals that they did before Dp we still have to use our major discs on named for the 3 minutes that we are able. We can tank an extra npc in a group or 2 that we could not before but that is more no time to bleed. All it did for the warrior was allow us to survive the harder hitting raid stuff while our discs are down. What it did for you is substantially different than what it did for us. And it only became 30% after 3 - 4 years of proper balancing.
  10. Seldom Augur

    What did DP change for Warriors, when only Warriors had? 1.) Made Warriors superior add tanks in any and all situations that a Knight would have required a healer. -- 2.) Made Warriors substantially better raid boss tanks. Even being on par with the other tank classes fully disc'd, while they ran zero-- 3.) Completely broke all logical balance
  11. Makavien Augur


    It made u s good on overtuned adds you mean? Because knights sure had no problem tanking before the tbs expansion . Warriors have always been the Boss tank ? If it broke all logical balance how have knights survived this entire time tanking things ? Heck there were knights tanking Calix in TBS the hardest hitting npc in the expansion.
  12. sojero One hit wonder


    What it did for warriors is gave them the ability to have 30% (after all tuning etc) always on mitigation that stacks with other discs in your repertoire to make you tank almost the same as under LS all the time. What it did for knights was allow us the same baseline mitigation as warriors, so that all tanks can do the basic tanking job.

    In all honestly it did do something substantially different for knights, but I honestly don't think you know what that part is, and I don't think it is what you are thinking about. It allowed warriors to have almost LS mitigation at all times. It allowed knights to catch up in a game that is being designed around warrior mitigation. It allows for knights to tank trash in raid game that can stun, hello lifeblood golem, without the larger risk of being rounded. We could tank it before, but you can ask healers, it was not nearly as easy and knights would get rounded if a disc fell, where now we don't, but it is still harder to keep up healed on it.

    We also lose our healing mitigation during stun phases, silence phases, and phases that knock us around, where always on mitigation is not lost during that, so it helped us catch up in that respect as well.


    also your 3-4 year timeline is a bit off:

    Defensive Proficiency
    2014-06-19 Initial Entry

    2014-11-17 Changed Slot 1 from "Increase Melee Mitigation by 25% " to "Increase Melee Mitigation by 30% "
  13. Makavien Augur


    Look up the phalanx of 1 aa and anything else we got survival wise in the years around that time. My time line is not perfect no. I am just gonna be called a whiner and someone will make an attempt to silence me anyway so I am not looking it up . Npc that stun have historically been a warrior tank npc as far back as pop. Or even before that if you think about the ogre stun resist. You could easily be tanking Anashti even before these changes.

    And you understand that I know that you guys needed a version of it I kinda remember when I suggested it the knights telling me they wanted nothing to do with stances . Boy how tunes change . Once people see a portion of the power of another class.
  14. Warpeace Augur

    Well to start I put that up in sarcasm to Kamea's silly question regarding Paly heals. Are we talking Over healing that has zero value, Getting lucky and hitting things just right and you get most of your heals value or all the heals value...are you solo, grouped, using a merc healer or in a raid. Are you tanking because if so you have a completely different set of spells up or are you set as a group healer / splash bot? How do you want the Paly to play dictates what spells you load on the bar, you don't just go from super healer to tanking sets. Your trying to leap from support and heal spells to agro and damage mitigation spells with maybe an oh crap self heal. They also leave out fizzles and interruptions because the Paladin is up in the thick of things. Guess you can also throw in how fast damage come at any individual vs cast time will be a factor also.

    Some reason there are Warriors that have the belief or at least come off sounding like Paladins have 40 spell gems to play with, we have 12 like everyone else with spells.

    So for healing to have value you already have to have lost health.Yes lets argue something like healing that has no absolute and is extremely fluid hanging each and every encounter vs DP and its constant 30% mitigation. DP has an absolute value that some are trying very hard to ignore or discredit.


    So back to your question

    Lets see originally it gave you a 30% mitigation that has 100% up time even in its original clunky state. No other class would come close to that unless under disk. Save me the story end result is it was tuned to 30% and there it still remains.


    It changed nothing besides the level of whining coming from Warriors because it was also just given to knights. Warriors pretending like 30% full time mitigation was no big deal vs your other tank classes. You basically had a 30% non stop running mitigation disk going 24/7. That's not a small advantage that's huge if you honestly look at it.

    It wasn't the Warrior classes fault but was a bad design from the Dev that gave it out to start. Hard to say what the thought process was but still your other disks have suffered from that. Now it also does not make it right they gave Knights a copy past it probably should have been a lesser version but that depends on how much better they want Knights to tank. Honestly no one except the Devs know the answer if it should have been lessor or the same.

    Do they need to come back and re look at this mess?, yes they do and when they do they need to be able to tell / answer the tank community here is the desired outcome with Class X filling this slot and class Y here...but we all know we are not going to get an answer.

    If content is that challenging all tanks should be running a disk.
  15. Kamea Augur

    No wonder why the knights in this thread encounter problems that I frankly don't observe from knights in game. They think if you can't supply 100% of healing you need with self heals, it's not worth using self healing at all.
  16. Xanathol Augur

    Sojero, I think you've overstated the value because you've simplified the case to something in a vacuum. Say you've got 120k hp and a mob does 30k, 22k, 32k, etc in 2 second intervals (actual data taken from my logs). If you get off a 12k lifetap (focus, no crit) - if it can be channeled in the first place - it will negate 12k off that 84k total which is ~14% and looks great... on paper.

    The thing is, in practice, your cleric has to heal all the same bc (1) 12k doesn't mean much and (2) he has no idea if you'll get that heal off or not and (3) you must survive the damage to heal the damage. So in reality, the cleric has to heal as if there is no lifetap and if that tap is 'late', the cleric heal fills the HP bar and the tap is meaningless. Even with crits & ex heals factored in, all the same conditions apply to how the cleric has to approach the situation.

    TL;DR version - healing is not the same as mitigation and cannot be easily compared. Mitigation / avoidance is worth a LOT more than healing on challenging content, while healing gains value on trivial content.
  17. Ravengloome Augur

    There was also a warrior that tanked him for 25 mins straight (correct me if Wrong Triconix posted something to that effect last ish year?)

    So I am failing to see your point that a knight could tank him for roughly 2 minutes maybe 3 being a decisive indicator of parity?
  18. Ravengloome Augur

    I can't believe this even needed to be said lololololol
    Xanathol likes this.
  19. sojero One hit wonder


    Not calling you a whiner at all, just wanted to give you the reference points. I also know all about the PoO AA and how it was stacking with LS and DP and was not intended and thus they compromised and added it into DP, at 5% so not full amount, and took it away.
  20. sojero One hit wonder


    Oh I know how complicated it can be and simplified it as much as I could, as you have to look at the audience, and as soon as you start breaking into real world seen, then they don't understand and go ballistic. Damn I can't believe I am posting in this thread again!
    Xanathol likes this.
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