New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

While I've said several times that I would have done it differently, I can see why they did exactly what they did. I'm still hoping that this was only step 1 and that more changes for the classes are coming. I can see using the stance system for other classes too.

You keep saying things like this but you've honestly not proposed one single recommendation that is backed up with any sort of proof. The couple of times you've even mentioned a percentage, was just based off of your own opinion, someone else's opinion that also skipped any real work to come up with that opinion or a simple wild guess at a number that made you "feel good" about it but in fact had no basis in reality.

The always there 35% damage mitigation was simply too huge of an advantage in raids once they started putting in mobs that quad for 60k or more. Even the adds were hitting hard enough that it made more sense to use Warriors for them than knights because you had to assign healers to the add tanks and the knights weren't reliable options for the MT role if something went wrong. It was getting to the point where it was smarter to carry 2 Paladins to cover splash cures on the raids and only those raids that required it and 0 Shadow Knights in favor of as many Warriors as you needed to complete the events.

In the group game, it's also difficult for them to tune missions where you can make it a real challenge for Warriors without slaughtering the knights. Unless of course you think it makes sense that a 6 man party should have to bring along a Warrior to tank for the knights just so they can be carried through the missions to get their achievements. Prior to the patch, tuning the missions for what the knights could handle just made it too easy for Warriors.

I can see how it might suck and seem like a real hit to your ego when you get to see a knight do something that was done almost exclusively by Warriors prior to that patch, but the change needed to be made. It was just getting too silly to leave as-is.

Warriors weren't nerfed in any way and they weren't even replaced as the top raid tank. They're still viable as group tanks as well. All of the talk about the 'carrot' that was the raid main tank duty to make up for all of their suffering, class descriptions that when carefully parsed and read certain specific ways support some old notion of how things should be, guild summits, sit-ins, etc... is all just a bunch of hot air by certain individuals that have an agenda. They've had that agenda for over a decade now and it's not going away anytime soon. Protecting the egos of a couple dozen players isn't worth continuing down the road that EQ was traveling with regards to tanking and the 3 main classes that do it.

It was broken. It had been broken for a long time. They finally did something to try and actually "fix" it. The dev that is currently taking the lead on this supposedly plays EQ, raids and actually looks at parses from those raids for real world information. I'll take that kind of informed approach for addressing the issue any day. Especially when the other option is listening to someone running about screaming at the top of their lungs quoting dev posts from 10+ years ago as if they even still apply to the current state of the game and waving their hands around before coming up with random numbers for what abilities should do - even if it means some mistakes are made along the way.

As far as the original post, play whichever class you think you'll like best. It's a game after all and if you don't enjoy the class you play, and you're only playing it because some random dude on the forums here said it's the smart thing to do, then odds are you'll be quitting sometime soon. The game needs more players, so please don't do that.

It would be really nice if DBG had said before this change, not were change knights abit so there better at tanking. But OUR GOAL IS TO MAKE THEM EQUAL TO WARRIORS. Then people wouldn't need to speculate about whether DBG is asleep at the wheel and out to lunch, or did it on purpose. For me after seeing what they did with the release of tbm, and to mages and bards, i see it more as there out of touch and breaking things they don't understand, but that is just my opinion.

I find it abit funny after every knight here said SK do less dps then warrior, in the other thread when someone mentions taking away knight 2h, every sk says, no way we'd loose our dps advantage over warriors. Which is it? You 2 faced lobbyists.

Historicaly knights have been with in 5-15% of warrior full time mitigation so this change is a huge departure from that. Course, if you go way back, warrior armor also had substantialy more ac/hp then knights did, as part of the balance.

It could be as simple as, DBG understands this change isn't perfect, but with the resources they were willing to devote to the issue, this is what could be done. Someone also thought dumping endless $$$ into EQ next was a great plan, then they ended up scrapping it. Not a perfect world. This change brought knights to equal tanking as warriors (even though they wont admit it for the fear of nerf bat), and that isn't fair.

[quote="Mistatk, post: 3411279, member: 7642"This change brought knights to equal tanking as warriors (even though they wont admit it for the fear of nerf bat), and that isn't fair.[/quote]

Warriors are still slightly better. Some warriors feel that slightly better isn't good enough and knight corpses should litter the fields of battle long before a Warrior drops. Anything less is unacceptable. At this point in time, they can't be reasoned with at all short of DBG reversing itself which is highly unlikely.

As someone else pointed out, the real losers here are anyone that grabs aggro and isn't a Warrior, Paladin or Shadow Knight. They're just screwed.

That's really what's its all about.

You continue to display a comprehension or integrity problem. I've already proven to you that warrior 1her melee is equal to or more than sk 2her melee, which in itself needs to be fixed. If you take away knight ratio 2hers it will only get worse. As for totals, you've been told repeatedly that without adps, sks are ahead but with appropriate adps, warriors are right back in it if they want to be. No one's statements have changed but you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over.

Really? lol. want me to copy and paste the statements from the other thread from Sk's? I can't even tell what your saying right now, if you do or don't think SK should and do out dps warrior. After going around and around about this for hours, i know that as a total package sk's out dps warriors substantially, i see it day in and day out on raid parses. Which according to all the posts which say, SK ARE SUPPOSE TO OUT DPS WARRIOR, is in line i guess with peoples expectations. Except, here you are saying you've already proven that sk don't out dps warriors, if you put warriors in a fictional perfected adps group that never exists and a warrior is never in. So just stop, either sk do or don't out dps warrior, stop with all the, its all situational, nobody really knows etc etc bs.

So its a comprehension issue - got it. As such, you really should refrain from commenting further.

Lol, youve proven that warriors out dps SK, and i need to stop saying otherwise. ok then

Yeah. I mean it's fine to type that. But, 1) its not true 2) the guy thinks he somehow proved it 3) While all the sk try to deny they out dps warrior 100% of the time, in the other thread there saying they need to keep there brand new 2h stance cuz it lets them further out dps warriors. Its just impossible to have any type of honest discussion when you have knights deathly scared of the nerf bat posting disinformation non stop. And then, most of em, when you call em out on it, it is the last time they post. Where is the guy who said cuz warriors can dual wield? Where is the guy who said knights dont get flurry?

You literally have no idea how any of this works. Of course Knights have flurry the point is looking at the percent differential between Knights and warriors and then realizing the difference in potential in mainland attacks based in mods and attack dly as well as triple attack.

Get an adult to read my post to you. Evidently you don't understand that 17k & 27k are more than 16k. Math is not hard.

That's hilarious Mistake, this whole thread has been warriors whining and screaming how unfair it is that knights can now do what they were meant to do, tank. Nothing was taken from you guys, nothing. Your just pissy that your not so special now. All this thread has been has been a non stop attempt to get the nerf bat swung the knights way. All reasonable knights, ffs so sick of hearing that, you heard one or two say something you wanted and all of a sudden its MOST reasonable knights. Then to keep the campaign going we see another thread started to try and garner some attention. Almost 50 pages time to move on with the times.

Your trying to convince me that when i see SK out dps on the parse I'm not really seeing it. Your trying to introduce something mysterious into the mix, and its simple, I see with my own eyes SK out dps. You can go on and on and on about mathematics, but if the 1 on the parse shows the SK way higher, they out dps. And for like the millionth time, a big part of the reason is, not all SK dps comes from meleeing.

I do understand which number is bigger. What im saying is your number is false, you invented it.

I can't speak for any other person, warrior or otherwise. I don't want anyone nerfed. I do think SK needed a boost. I think they now tank as well or better then warriors, and I think that is going abit too far. Your arguement nothing was taken from warriors holds no water with me, and I will explain why. If they boosted knights to 90% full time mitigation, that would take nothing from warriors, and it would still be irrelevant to the topic. At the current time, knights are better in all ways and all content, so new players would be well advised to roll one up. Plain and simple.

and grats on your brand new account. wasnt it the knights saying any idea opposing theirs is probly just warriors on new accounts? hmmm

So.....

You're going on the assumption DBG actually put thought into giving two classes perhaps the biggest 1-patch buffing ever.

Considering there was zero tuning of either stance, and that this did zero to address the problem of SK-v-Pal balance, it's clear they didn't put any thought into it.

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I don't know why SKs are still whining about DPS, the DOT changes will likely be a significant DPS boost to SK DPS, a bigger increase than stances.

You can stick your head in the sand if you want but it doesn't change the facts.

Seriously? You two keep campaigning for a dps advantage and lobbying for sk melee to be nonexistent - that's why it keeps coming up. SKs aren't casters whom happen to wear plate but tanks who melee and happen to cast damaging spells. The DoT changes are a wait & see right now but from the examples given, the mana cost could be crippling, especially in group content where mob turnover is high, making it even more important that melee dps is addressed.

I still don't understand why anyone would want to think SKs (and to a lesser extent Pal), should be less dps then a warrior.

Why do some people not want to accept their own 75/25 ratio when it comes to dps for SKs. Was the intent of devs to only give FD, weak pet, and snare to fulfill the 25% portion of necros? IMO, SKs should be better dps then their current state. Maybe they will get to that point or at least closer when the new dot changes come around to them.

As for paladins, one can make a better arguement (on the war side) using the above ideal in which paladins should be equal to the warrior or only slightly ahead if they choose to go nuke heavy without healing vs regular mobs.

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When it comes to tanking.. if warriors still want to follow the 75/25.... if, we as knights, gave back all of the KS and had our DP adjusted downward, the DP would still end up being ~25% mitigation. Even if this happened, those same knights which can 'main tank better then warriors' with the current 35% mitigation (DP+KS) will STILL be able to MT a boss at 25% DP. They will still be able to appear to tank as well as warriors... not because their mitigation is soo good, but because the player of the knight, along with the raid they are in, is top of the line in every aspect.