New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Time Burner 2, Feb 18, 2016.

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  1. Battleaxe Augur

    The unmatched ability to survive clearly means other classes don't achieve Warrior survivability rates vs. the most brutal mobs. In short while content is current knights are more likely to die than Warriors when tanking raid boss mobs. When a guild can have knights tank every event in an expansion that representation made to Warriors is clearly not being kept.
    The Phase 2 Melee Update which was ultimately canceled had quite a few outside of the Tank Archetype abilities. Devs stated it was to close a utility gap that had become too wide/knights would not be getting upgrades in compensation.
  2. p2aa Augur

    DP has been put in place to help warriors survive after defensive disc is down. Thing that was hard to be done. This tool had perfectly his place in the warrior arsenal, and this is why knight didn't complain. The parent class getting a mitigation advantage back on the hybrids ones.

    If DP was removed from both classes, warriors would need way more than a 5 % advantage on knights.You lost all credibility when you said that a 5 % advantage over knights was a massive advantage on MT Raid Bosses.


    That's completly wrong. Most warriors in this thread agreed that knights needed a boost to be able to tank brutal mobs, like raids adds in raid or eating RT. This is where a lesser def prof % for knights would have suited this role. Reasonable knights even agreed on this. In the other way, it has been particularly untenable to see some knights trying to justify a 35 % def prof same like warriors, and trying to justify that mitigating like warriors on brutal raid bosses was "right".
    The main problem for most of us is the % of Knight DP. If it had been right from start cut like in half, you would not have seen such reaction from warriors.

    You realize most players don't read these boards ? Doesn't mean they don't think the same.

    We aren't knights, we never decided to sacrifice some mitigation for utility. Which was the choice that you did by picking a tank hybrid. Your last sentence is once again an exageration.
    Also, you cannot eliminate group content and soloing, which was also the counterpart of having less mitigation than warriors and getting more power in other areas outside raid tanking.
  3. Kamea Augur

    He admitted he didn't have experience tanking bosses, didn't parse his own tanking, didn't look at his warriors' parses, claimed the primary killer of boss tanks is being 1-rounded from 100% hp therefore knight heals didn't matter on raids, and claimed that warrior had a 5% mitigation advantage before we got stances when we really had a 15% advantage back then. He also claims that warriors still have a major advantage comparing 60% LS+innate+shining to 70%->55% DP+innate+mantle->armor on the knight ledger... because of course knight spell book doesn't count because despite not having experience nor parses, being 1-rounded from 100% hp is how MTs die.

    ...And his posts are getting more likes than most in this thread. Knights love fact free arguments like Trump supporters.
  4. shiftie Augur

    Here is the thing yall keep fing up. When I chose a paladin and chose spells over not spells. The warrior advantage was minuscule. It was higher skills and more hp. People keep saying I chose to be his or I chose to be that. No I didn't choose that at all. I chose spells. Everything else is game evolution. I was equally matched against all content. Further more my stuns made up any and all deficits. Raids didn't even exist when I made my toon. The game evolved and so did my class. But trying to hold my class choice over my head that I chose 17!years ago doesn't hold any weight. Yall are being ridiculous. Your class a year or 2 after my choice became a raid tank and it was probably three years into the game before anyone figure it out game mechanics. In that day and age people still didn't even understand how things like harmony worked.
    Xanathol likes this.
  5. Battleaxe Augur

    Here's the thing y'all keep fing up. When I chose to play a Paladin and chose spells over not spells:
    1. The Warrior advantage was miniscule despite devs saying:
    a. There wouldn't be dual classes in EQ. There would be some hybrids - part one archetype and part another.
    b. A dev observed that if a class could do what the Warrior class did and had additional capabilities a person would be crazy to play a Warrior.
    c. Knights already knew as of the Daily Developer Chats (late Beta/early release) that Warriors were to be the best tank.

    2. The original devlopment team delivered what they said was to be the case. Defensive abilities weren't "evolution" there were no intervening steps nor were they a "revolution" - there was no revolt there was putting into place measures that resulted in exactly what I knew was to happen.

    When defensive abilities appeared I changed my focus from a Paladin to a Warrior. Not because Warrior was the OP flavor of the month but because The Best Tank carrying a bunch of responsibility on raids appealed to me more than (at the time) "stepping back once a day" and delivering a CLERICal heal.

    Oh sure a Paladin could stun lock mobs, could click that helmet and get 0 refresh time heals, could blind mobs for unbreakable aggro

    just as a Warrior could use a fear axe, fear a mob into a wall, and without the mob having any chance to fight back could kill it. But I was interested in a fair fight and not exploiting stun, blind, 0 refresh heals, or 95% Warrior 50% Cleric.

    So when other knights decided to keep playing a knight I decided to play a tank with unmatched survivability vs. the most brutal mobs. And when knights (I was no longer one) decided to campagin for defensive discs they had turned down (by not rerolling as a Warrior) I called them out for their perfidity.

    Did yas like 10ish years of soloing superiority?
    Healing and curing others (remember achieving almost Warrior like survival doesn't require those spells to work on others)?
    Slay Undead? (My Pally rode Slay Undead MORE than my Ranger rode Headshot)?

    Why then Shiftie would you presume to "offer" a class that turned down utility for tanking superiority - utility that could not possibly equal tank/Cleric synergy? I know why and it does not reflect well on you.
  6. Seldom Augur

    Recap version for anyone that doesn't want to read; a select few Warriors are upset, wish various nerfs upon Knights and nothing else will make them feel better minus a large mitigation advantage while fully disc'd and a large permanent sustained mitigation advantage out of disc by merely equipping a shield. Basically, a good "portion" of the things that lead to absurd tanking imbalances and 120 active raiding Warriors, 59 Paladins, 52 Shadowknights in the only 15 guilds to have defeated Broken Mirror expansion. FYI; not a single Knight to my knowledge, whined when you guys got Dichotomic Shielding, a 40% threshold rune and 25% hp boost with decent uptime that can stack on top of LS or Shield Prof. Before Warriors even got that completely new line this expansion, multiple Warriors were claiming Knights needed a Shield Prof at a lesser % than theirs as balance was already that skewed and apparent. Now, some of those same Warriors, are claiming the same % is in order as was being thrown around back then. Yup, that's logic and numbers for you
    Xanathol likes this.
  7. Mistatk Augur


    This is a false recap.

    I've repeatedly started my posts by saying I'm not asking for knight nerfs, to avoid this type of disinformation.

    I do feel that there should be some gap between knights and warriors in tanking, not parity or equality.

    As far as this guild has X number warriors, that guild has Y number warriors, I don't feel it is an indicator of anything and here is why:

    1) these changes are brand new

    2) Nobody is kicking anyone out of their guild because of a change, people will continue to play with people they've raided with for years inspite of any changes

    3) Past what a class warr/sk/paladin can do, its really a lot more important how they are played, and the high number of active warriors still raiding may be an indication of what type of person was originaly attracted to that class of player.

    Instead of trying to say don't look here anyone, nothing to see here, just read my recap and believe its the truth, let people read for themselves. If they don't have the time to read a bit, maybe they don't have a lot to add to the discussion like that Kobrah guy who jumps in to make a random jab here and there.

    And, to the person who said, yeah warriors are getting shafted, but good for you because of the Daegun campaign. What is that, please explain.
  8. Seldom Augur

    Mistatk, what did you mean on page 33 when you said; "apparently one of the developers is a mediocre Shadowknight who thought with a simple boost they'd win EQ."? Please explain. FYI; You don't kick underpowered classes out of guilds. You close recruitment on them and stockpile on the ones best at performing role. Tanks main role, is to tank. It is a very telling sign that active raiding Warriors now out number Paladins + Shadowknights combined at the highest of end spectrum.
  9. shiftie Augur

    Such short memories.

    It isn't a snap decision. They've been planning something to this effect as a design team since at least 2011 if the date stamps were correct on this post.

    I'm not wearing a tinfoil hate I just have a better memory than you do.
  10. Kamea Augur

    I don't wear a tinfoil hat, I just scour through 5 year old dev posts to string a bunch of posts from retired devs together to prove my point.

    You're the one with good memory, eh? When Elidroth actually looked into knight-v-war balance that year, he decided that wars needed a boost as we went from 5% to 10% mitigation soon after that post (first set of Phalanx.) After that, guess what? He decided that wars needed a boost (again) as we went from 10% to 15% mitigation (second set of Phalanx.) After that, guess what? He decided that wars needed a boost (again) as we went from 15% to 25% mitigation (DP v 1.0.) After that, guess what? He decided that wars needed a boost (again) as we went from 25% to 30% mitigation (DP v 2.0.)

    Only you can look at this track record of continuously boosting warrior mitigation over knights and conclude it was all a secret plan to bring knight/War mitigation parity.
  11. Nightops Augur

    I don't see how you fail to see the issue with your reply statement.

    Even if people want to remotely consider your reasoning... what about that warrior ability to boost their hps by 45k? I guess you forgot about that one... or does that not count in your opinion?


    Here's one for you to compare using your logic...
    War Dichotomic vs pal dichotomic
    Please tell me which class got the better line on that spell line. I'm sure warriors would be real happy if the mitigation half of their dichotomic didn't effect hits from a raid boss (similar to stuns not working on raid bosses) and the other half was adjusted to reflect an endurance cost nearly 6x the amount done by your previous version while being weaker.
  12. shiftie Augur

    Look at the numbers of his proposed plan. How can you be so obtuse.

    He wanted to change mantle and ls to only last 18 seconds. Meanwhile wars would have an always in 45% while Knights would be at 40%.

    5% mitigation difference.

    Do you really think that a desire for a 5% always on difference = 35% always on advantage to warriors? . Meanwhile mob damage went up and not down?
  13. Mistatk Augur


    I mean what I said. I think one of the main developers (Elidroth?), left DBG, and I think whatever new developers took over from him doesn't have the same view. I think the new developer probably raids on an SK and gets pounded and hopes now he can be the MT.

    Yeah, guilds were not previously closing any classes based on this current change because it hadn't happened yet.
  14. Mistatk Augur


    Yeah, but. So, phalanx of one got changed into just being part of our stance so we lost on that. Then you give knights a built in 5% plus the warrior stance. How do you figure warriors are still 5% ahead as a baseline. On the making main discs only last 18 seconds and have have everything else revolve around the baseline, its interesting. But I have to wonder if he never implemented it because he changed his mind about it.
  15. Kamea Augur


    No where in his post did he say anything about what he felt was the appropriate innate mitigation gap. You didn't link to the right post in your quote so I don't know if it was before or after VOA beta aka when Phalanx was made (by Elidroth, btw.)

    The only number he cited was, "if" Mantle and FS were lowered to 18s duration, he'd keep FS at 45% and raise Mantle and Carapace to 40% and remove the damage cap.

    FYI, FS stacked with innate5 and Shining, where as Mantle stacking with nothing else at the time, so the actual gap on his proposal would've been bigger. This was years before guardian disc existed, aka when knights -only- had vie discs. You guys got Guardian discs 2 years later which was much better (for pals at least) than a 40% Mantle as it had a longer duration and stacked with shining.

    At the end he proposed buffing knights by boosting taps and heals, not with innate mitigation. You're reading things into his post he never said. Your interpretation of his post is absolutely horrid because you support knights having innate5+30% DP, which is literally the worst possible solution to the problem he was trying to fix of non-tanks being smoked by every mob in the game.
  16. Nightops Augur

    I could be wrong.. but that's not how mitigation works. You can't just add up the 3 common sources of mitigation and say.. '~bam~' .. total mitigation is total mitigation.

    Not to mention.. if it was, then the 60% you listed for warriors would be 65% because your uber-quality paladins would be able to spam and keep their protective line buff going for the war MT while any paladin MT using the mantle->armor discs wouldn't be able to stack the protective recourse line.

    --------------------
    Also.. wouldn't the warrior part look similar to this over 10 mins...if total mitigation = real mitigation
    Warriors
    65%->50%->65%
    LS+innate+Protective -> DP+innate+Protective -> LS+innate+protective
    **Ability to Trade the 15% from protective with "+40% mitigation with melee hits over 11k" from dichotomic at any time.

    Paladins
    70%->55%->56%->50%
    DP+innate+Mantle -> DP+innate+Armor -> Guardian+innate+Protective -> DP+innate+protective

    Fortunately, for everyone... none of these additive mitigation %s are truely real mitigation %.
    Unfortunately, for everyone... the true mitigation % is much harder to figure out which causes people (warriors on this thread) to make unsupported posts which don't carry the factual backing they (war) thought they had.
    -------------

    The mitigation issue was stated many many pages ago and on many other threads on these forums the details have been explained better

    Please continue to ignore this fact and show your ignorance.
  17. shiftie Augur

    The point is not the exact numbers. The point is the dev team acknowledged the mitigation problems and the game design flaws of last stand. He was specifically speaking about how tuning content in such a way to make warriors useful makes all non warriors splat on contact. You can't design inside that box non punitive and fun content.


    Fast forward to now and see what happened before and after knight stances. I honestly don't care about keeping the stances. Ive said before it makes no difference in my limited playtime. I just find it comical that 1 you keep mentioning me. And 2 how greedy Yall are. Specifically calling for knight stances to be nerfed.
  18. Nightops Augur

    Not to mention.. the warrior discs are stable based on time while the knight discs (mantle/armor) will expire when total amount absorbed has reached the limit. This turns the MT rotation into something like this...

    War says... my LS is ending in 12 seconds... next in rotation take agro.

    Knight says.. oh crap, mantle just expired...take boss before I... <waiting for rez>.
  19. Mistatk Augur


    I can tell you one thing. For example take Warlord tenacity which people keep quoting. It can be used one every 20min. Comparing all the little abilities like that, with adding 24/7 35% mitigation is apples and oranges. Also, saying a paladin can do this or that, what if the raid is mostly warriors, who is going to cast paladin buffs on each other. Now if its a bunch of paladins its a different story, right?
  20. Warpeace Augur

    Yes, the Developer running Everquest is a SK and singlehandedly decided to change everything pertaining to tanking so they could be a MT god and not use their Dev powers in game.
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