Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Time Burner 2, Feb 18, 2016.
Sheex quit being reasonable that's just silly.
Oh I 100% agree and have said so, and still believe that it should have been 15-20% not 30%, and we should not have gotten the 5% innate part, that should be war only.
I also think that the % based mitigation abilities are what got us to this uneven balance to begin with. They should all be taken out and made finite abilities like nttb repel, sk skin buff etc that are way easier to tune around and not destroying every other class that gets hit by ramp or something like that.
Yar, the real losers with these are melee dps (and to a lesser extent everyone else) trying to survive in raids with loose adds when they're tuned around a 30% perma mitigation.
Loose add? man my zerker takes it in the face on ramp and has been 1 rounded easily and then hes hurtin the rest of the fight hard cause of it, I truely hate what has happened to melee dps because of what those abilties do, Oh and lets not talk about how much agro a full burning zerker (as well as many other classes) can pull and if the war isnt on top of it (letting a pet have top agro so doesn't know where others are) and it turns to the dps'er, forget about it! You don't have time to click an parry/repost disc cause you died in 1 round that happened on the server side and so you 0 reaction time. Makes it really really unfun to play a melee dps toon sometimes.
Warriors still have a ''GIGANTIC" edge versus Paladins on "Raid Boss" tanking when both stack all abilities. Shadowknights are competitive if they go purple ability route. Warriors still have a large aggro advantage. I could care less if a handful of Wars on these forums aim for improvements, as long as it isn't with blatant lies such as Paladins were considered better than Warriors by "most", "before" the changes. Even AFTER the changes, Warriors have tons of edges tank wise. End game guilds will continue to stack more Warriors than Knights. Until I start seeing more even numbers(which rarely lie), I'm going to find it very hard to sympathize with any Warrior claims of Knight superiority in the raid game. I know some find it perfectly balanced to run with 9 warriors, 3 paladins and 2 shadowknights on their guild roster when things are heavily skewed in their own classes favor, but it isn't.
I'm glad you dug out both of those quotes.
He didn't mean 13 literally... or did he? It's so hard to tell these days with people changing their opinions and l3tz info every other post. I guess we will just stick with his writen word.
Lets not get out of hand, they have a 10-15% advantage in mitigation and more hp, but its not nearly as gigantic as it was before, its almost to much in knight favor at times. SK more so than Pally because of reaver's.
Also War agro is not so far beyond knights that it makes any difference, theirs is just a bit faster and can front load it, which is great for them. SK can do the same thing to a lesser extent (maybe?), and sk and pal also have abilities (unflinching) that can help them get time to load up enough so that no dps grabs agro.
This just gives knights the ability to fill in, does not replace warriors in any way shape or form.
That's right, knight mitigation need to be boosted let's have you a 55 % mitigation disc so we go from "gigantic" advantage to "good" advantage ? Oh and to get it "tiny" what about a 75 % mitigation disc ?
Some people are so delusional it's really comical.
If devs were planning on holding reavers against sk's...I can pretty much guarantee that sk's would want it just gone because after using reavers..we are out of options.
Exactly, I almost never use it because of the downside, only on raids, and only if I haven't already been killed and have to step in for war on main boss. By the time I need it, its to late because I used to be rounded if i didn't have deflect/shield flash going on the switch, and if I died, I cant use it anyway. Also its useless atm because its on the same timer as mindless hatred (bug) and so its always down after we got DP, so haven't been able to test it.
This ability is an oh crap i can only tank for the next 2 mins and then your out of steam.
What advantage you speak of ? Do you mean Shining Defense- PP pally one ? Don't knights get it stacking too under Def Prof and their Holy / Unholy disc ? (I know it doesn't stack with your 2 other 35 % and 20 % damage cap discs)
The devs have been trying to design themselves out of that mistake for over a decade...
Wars cried I'm useless... Devs release underfoot raids requiring war tanks. Everyone else died almost instantly if they were top aggro
The community cried it's too hard... The devs release HoT
Everyone gets boosted and cries ... It's too easy
Wars cry Knights tank too well we are useless
Devs release voa
Wars are in the limelight again. All shiny and desired again (unless you count pets lol)
The community cries it's too hard
Everyone gets boosted
Devs release its rof (Eli wants to remove last stand)
Everyone cries it's too easy
Wars cry we have to keep last stand without it we have nothing
Eli gives out proficiencies and wars get nttb to make them useful in group content
Repeat over and over
You literally can't design around it. Every time they try we have wild swings in either direction. Had all three tanks been capable to tank equally wars would have gotten 15 years of abilities like rogues and monks and everyone else that has random cool abilities that make the class fun.
Short sighted nah... I just find it comical that a class so dead set on keeping their superiority now finds themselves on equal footing crying about balance. I don't care if they remove the proficiencies or not I got them added while busy at work. I'm off tomorrow. That will be the first time I get to play around with it. If they removed them right now I wouldn't know the difference.
yes under ls+ 15% vie+ac discs your overall mitigation is around 10% higher than a knight with dp+mantle. unholy is the worst disc for SK because we get our leech abilities decreased during it and now it doesn't stack with DP. Pallies not as much, but even then its still 9% less + all the rest that war have in their arsenal.
You can also stack more to get higher heals, than sk, around the same as pal (because pal can cast some of theirs on you)
You can also stack your hp higher in many ways, innate + warlords+more from cleric aura etc, to fill in gaps, you also can get the hp buffs SS/growth that sk/pal get, ours takes one of our spell slots as well, ours also starts a bit higher, but loses top hp faster as well.
You also will run higher ac at all times than the other knights, so the chance for lower DI rolls are much better as well.
All of these are good things though, its what separate you from the knights, and there should be something in there that makes you desirable, and these are what they do. The war class has an amazing set of tools, and when they are buffed by others on raids it gets even bigger.
Knights don't get the same amount from the of buffs from others, but we get a great set on our own to make up for that.
I don't think people (some of the wars on here) really understand how much %based abilities can amount to now days, % based things are terrible because they scale up and down. to amazing and to useless.
There's a glaring oversight in that recap.
In 2011/VOA we got an AA called Phalanx of One. This AA was passive melee mitigation. I forget the exact figures, but it was ~10% (+/- 2%) in VOA and raised to ~15% (+/- 3%) with more AA's in ROF.
This was never intended to stack with Def discs (the description said it didn't), but it didn't work as intended and did stack. We had Phalanx before knights had Holy/Unholy guardian line, mind you.
It was 2013 when we got NTTB, stances didn't exist at this time. We had both Phalanx and NTTB that lasted full 5 mins for a period of time. Then they nerfed NTTB. Then they nerfed Phalanx.
Around the same time they were annually nerfing ISS/SS (thanks Shiftie) yet S&B was still the best setup for all situations for wars.
The combination of unintentional Phalanx + Final/Last Stand stack -and- 24-7 S&B is what prompted warriors getting stances. I was honestly surprised they made S&B stance 30% like they did. I suspect beyond wanting to further dilute FS/LS, that he didn't want wars to feel like overall tanking was being nerfed and felt a boost was in order (over the old phalanx %.)
This change significantly lowered our disced mitigation vs raid bosses, in 2014. Mind you, this was about a year after knights got their first melee mitigation (as opposed to damage absorb/vie-line) disc. After the Phalanx removal, knight v war first-disc boss tanking was literally the closest it ever was in EQ up to that point.
So. The 2 complaints from knights in this thread seem to be "LS is too strong" and "Warrior aggro is too high." The Def disc / LS nerf already occurred in 2014 via nerfing Phalanx, not to count the balance of granting knights a Def disc in 2013.
The other complaint, aggro: That really came down 1 ability really, Phantom Aggressor. This ability was heavily nerfed last Nov. It was not properly retuned, and the pet can mess up your aggro if you use it early in a fight.
Another thing knights don't realize. We don't have strong damage absorb / vie line discs like you guys. We had Brace for Impact (15%), which was quite nice in XP groups with mercs/dru/sham healing, and a nice 5% over shining on raids. However, it was too long and consistent that the devs nerfed it last Nov.
And this stance nerfed war DPS.
Plus, once again, our BP click isn't even tank related. Which is quite important for a class without a spell book.
So yeah, plenty of nerfs happened to wars.
Final form was 10%
Phalanx of One
1: Increase Melee Mitigation by 10%
2: Add Defensive Proc: Phalanx of Fury rate mod 200
First off it actually made your disced mitigation what is was supposed to be, not the bugged form.
Second it gave war the ability to tank at almost equal to LS when LS was down by stacking AC disc + field line
OMG you do have vies, NTTB and brace, your brace is just like SK skin line, its a random thing, oh well. NTTB is a vie on demand, the problem is, its just like any other vie and can be a detriment in some situations because it has a per hit cap and is set to 100% up to that cap, so hits that are over 10X that cap it is better to have 10-15% vie on you.
As to the dps part, I think they fixed a bug with that one. I do hope war get some activated dps abilities, I dont think stacking the wrong profeciency with your abilties and weapon setup was ever intentional.
Kamea; Warrior aggro is far better than Paladins, single target and AE. This isn't because of the nerfed Phantom Aggressor, though that played a role in making the gap larger pre nerf. That is one of the "many" reasons top guilds such as yours have rosters with 9 warriors, 3 paladins and two shadowknights(and aren't desperate to recruit more knights). Stating such isn't complaint, but a reality some Warriors on these forums tend to downplay. It is an obvious advantage the Warrior class "currently" holds. Along with gigantic hit point advantages when stacking abilities. Large advantages in hit points and aggro is all good advantages to have as a tank. Things of that nature is why "most" consider warriors the superior tank, before and after patch. Guild rosters such as yours will continue to reflect the many benefits of stacking Warriors. Sorry it isn't "quite" as beneficial for your guild as it was pre patch.
OK you are raiding tonight, end game content. Whos gonna be your main tank, Pally, SK or warrior?? Of course a warrior and this is AFTER a major buff to pally/SK tanking, that's how screwed up it was!!
If warriors want more utility, then I think that's doable,but they can't have a big huge tanking advantage in this game, it doesn't work. So give warriors some buffs and adps abilities, but the gap between them and other tanks, while tanking, needs to be close like it is now, period.
Problem is the vocal group here would rather refuse to ask for or accept utility like its beneath them. There really is some good potential for Warriors in gaining utility and some very creative people that play Warriors to actually put those ideas out there.
All you Warriors don't tank at once and would give you something else to keep you busy besides uber tank dps.
Brace for Impact was always the first choice for raid boss tanking due the NTTB stacking issues you noted, and the post I was responding to was talking about raid boss tanking (don't get me wrong, NTTB and PDH are quite important for trash and the group game.)
Brace for Impact was an important ability for raiding warriors, so its nerf can't be brushed aside. It's still potent and worth using, but a lot less reliable.
And Phantom Aggressor, which was definitely overpowered, was (and still is) our most important aggro disc. Again, its nerf can't be brushed aside.
Yes, Phalanx+FS/LS stacking and ISS+2H stance stacking was never intentional. But: Future game balance depends on in game results.
If the devs see DPS parses from warriors they feel are appropriate, they won't up DPS. If devs see warriors surviving as at rates they want vs raid bosses, they won't boost survival.
Phalanx was around for ~3 years, a pretty long time. So they adjusted tank balance over those 3 years taking in game results into account (this was the window when knights got melee mitigation discs btw.)
The issue with our strikes is more complicated. And I'd assume the changes to how stances work has absolutely nothing to do with the strike stack. (Not to count, I vastly prefer stances auto casting, regardless of the nerf.)
All of these 2H strike abilities that can be used while S&B is equipped can get boosted by S&B damage mods, as S&B damage mods just look for a weapon in primary, and a 2H disc strike occurs from primary hand. Warriors have normal 1Hers + dmg mods, while knights have superior ratio 1Hers and smaller S&B dmg mods. But since it's still a 2H ability, it can also be boosted with 2H damage mods.
Since ISS/SS was an innate mod, it had great stackability with buffs like Intensity or 2H stance, and gets further multiplied by discs (Warrior Brutal Onslaught is best for this purpose, since it can cause not only a modded crit, but a modded crippling blow.) The greater issue re: stacking will probably never be fixed.
Regardless, even ignoring DPS levels, the way warrior DPS is constructed is horrible. I don't care about the nerf per say; I'd prefer for our strikes to go away, and be replaced with something else. Warriors are far more reliant on 1) RNG 2) in group aDPS and 3) mob mitigation than knights. DPSing from a tank group (aka realistic situation for 97% of tanks) vastly favors knights, ignoring DPS levels.
I pray that the dev team is smart enough to have algorithms that they can plug numbers into and get the expected results and do not rely on player parses for the tuning of their game. Now that is not to say that bugs can create differences that are unexpected that can be brought by players to them to show discrepancies, but I don't believe for one minute that the initial balance depends on in game results from players, or even themselves for the most part because they know that they will not account or everything when in game and thus have their formulas that are much more reliable and can be simulated much quicker and with more ease than logging in and testing.
If you guys want more dps, go fight for it, I don't think your going to get it because you have to consider what you can do with full ADPS, just as every other class has to, but hey, go for the gold.
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