New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Time Burner 2, Feb 18, 2016.

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  1. Xanathol Augur

    Offensive is a pretty nice boost when you use it. Realize that any high mitigation mob hurts sk melee more than warriors since your skills are higher. Plus spell dmg has resists. So yes, please do talk about 'real mobs'.

    As an SK, ideally I'd have DoTs loaded if I know I am going to dps but right now, chaining a number of lifetaps works out about the same or better on a longer fight (that may change w DoT changes). Spear is always loaded (our DD).

    Short fight parses are all heavily RNG. SKs for instance have an insane drop off the longer the fight since HT / LT / TL account for so much.

    30-40% advantage? So you're saying, to pull numbers out of the air, that a war could hit 100k and an sk could hit 130-140k right now and you think that gap is 'way too large'? Note that I can pull that in <60 sec fight using everything and the drop off after that is a cliff. First off, being that the relative value of 1 point of dmg avoided / mitigated > 1 point hp healed > 1 point dmg dealt, that 'gap' you are quoting is pathetically small. Secondly, that gap closes astronomically quickly the longer the fight goes. Thirdly, move the two into dps groups and while both will increase, the warrior will moreso.
  2. Time Burner 2 Augur

    I personally think knights are "so good" relative to warriors because they:

    Own the dps game compared to warriors
    Own the solo game compared to warriors
    Own the molo game compared to warriors
    Own the group game compared to warriors
    Own the raid utility game compared to warriors
    Effectively match the raid boss tanking duties as compared to warriors

    They win in 5 areas, and match in the 6th area.
  3. Time Burner 2 Augur

    Using language like "Very powerful edge, especially during the most brutal of battles" may sound persuasive, but I'm not seeing it.

    Lets pretend warriors have 50 times the hit points of knights - ok, great...

    Why roll a warrior when:

    Knights own them in dps, molo, solo, group content, raid utility, AND can now effectively tank raid bosses.

    Why roll a warrior today, given the previous sentence? That is my question.
  4. Ravengloome Augur

    Why roll any class theres always one thats better at something than the one you want, Why play the game at all really i mean its just going to be a digital treadmill
  5. Kamea Augur

    Warriors don't use Offensive Disc on non-trivial raids. So it's pretty pointless to bring it up unless you think the point of DPS is getting 1 good parse a year on old content to boost your ego. To continue:

    I take it you looked it up and thought the % was high? It's a marginal boost in the real game, due to its main mod being crowded. My entire point with the stackability of warrior abilities is that we have way too many "Increase Damage" abilities. With Battle Leap, War Stomp, Vehement Rage (and less relevant to burns, Killing Spree and Detrimental Reprisal), the gains of offensive are heavily diluted by other abilities we could be using. These abilities do not stack with Offensive or Fellstrike. Not to count all of these abilities are diluted by Mammoth's too.

    From my parsing generic "Increase Damage" mods do not work nearly as well with 2H for wars as they do with S&B or DW. Warrior 2H seems to benefit more from crit rate and crit damage mods than S&B or DW. Really, warrior 2H DPS isn't as good as people think it is, it just benefits a lot from Brutal Onslaught relative to S&B.

    Either way, Offensive Disc is terribly tuned and needs to be adjusted. The #1 problem with warrior DPS is too many of our abilities being this mod.

    Do you mean putting the war and SK in the same melee-focused group?

    From what SKs tell me, they'd be better off going into a caster group due to good synergy with encs.

    36 pages in and I still don't know what these fictional guilds that put tanks in aDPS groups have to do with class balance in the real game where guilds have 10-12 tanks a raid, but I guess you guys will keep using this line.
  6. Xanathol Augur

    Shortening the quote for space's sake.

    You're losing focus again - I understand that you currently don't use the disc because it locks out LS. If you re-read my comments, you'd see where I stated I support them unlocking it from that conflict.

    SKs benefit from both spell & melee enhancements. The point is, a Warrior's benefit from adps can be more than that sum for SKs, if they can use their tools, and definitely if SKs only get one type of adps or the other.

    Just because you don't put a tank in an adps group doesn't mean you can't. Again, you confuse choice with limitations, and I assume you do so quite purposefully because you know that if you can convince the devs to boost your dps without adps, you know that will mean even bigger gains when you do get adps. Sorry - you're not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes there. I actually support the movement of some of your dps from adps from other to self provided, but with the caveat that the remaining SK issues are addressed (which honestly they should be anyways). As for actual examples, we do casual, open raids twice a week and have tons of tanks in those. To reiterate, just because you choose to do something doesn't mean something else cannot / does not exist.
  7. Makavien Augur

    You know you can just make a gina timer that says Recast Staunch Stance right? If you haven't figured that programs usefulness out yet I use it along with all the other good warriors to tell us when to recast things that are important. And I guess having to ask people to keep up with buffs that don't always get kept up with (most short term buffs in the game) is not counted as effort ? Last time I checked typing out a sentence is more clicks than hitting a # key or your left mouse key.

    Also the restraints on hotkeys are not very different from having spells since most knights I know use a maximum of 4 hot-bars along with their spell bar and combat ability window, while most warriors I know have 10 hot bars up and their combat ability window.

    The clunky too many button ancient ui design is a problem for us all. And would be more beneficial to work on fixing than anything else in the game.
  8. Kamea Augur

    Or maybe I say I don't care because I actually don't care.

    To address your accusation of a conspiracy: When warrior stances were originally implemented some people were pushing for DW to have a unique HHE effect that 2H didn't. I suggested making DW a self sufficient stance that didn't stack well with aDPS well, and making 2H more boostable by aDPS. So in a tank group, DW would be the best, but in an aDPS group, 2H would be the best.

    As it stances now DW is still largely useless, so it's ripe to get 'something.'
  9. Ravengloome Augur

    Having /tell button for wild growth works for me I have one for druids and another for shaman. Although to be honest I don't even have to keep track of it, I got a good druid who looks after me
  10. Mistatk Augur

    Warlords Tenacity is fine for what it is. It is up once, every TWENTY MINUTES for 2 minutes. Staunch stance is fine, its a small AC boost that can be run as disc anytime no main disc is being used. This stuff doesn't I don't think in anyway compare to adding 24/7 always on 35% mitigation. Let me say that again, since Warlords Tenacity is repeatedly brought up like its a full time always on thing or something. It can be up AT MOST 10% of the time, and you have to time that 10% really precisely to get use of it. So yes, 1/10th of the time your tanking, warlords tenacity is nice for increasing the max hp.
  11. Makavien Augur

    I have no hotkey spaces for tells for buffs too much other more important things. Like discs, aa , item clicks , macros to tell the raid what I need , and targeting keys. Heck I even use the socials tab of the action window and still run out of places. I even edit and restructure them about once a month to improve.
  12. shiftie Augur


    You do realize that we aren't talking hotbsr space and Ui? This just shows how little you know and how daft you are.

    There is a "vast" difference between spell gem limitations and clunky Ui with too many hotbars

    We have a finite amount of spell gems. Anything with a recast uses one of those limited slots. One cannot just mem something that has a 2 min recast (except 1 time with forceful which requires that you sit) if you choose a spell with a recast you are reserving that spell gem slot permanently as a spell set. To keep that spell memmed when priests already keep it up is a waste of a knight spell slot. It is a large reason any spell we get with a long recast sucks. The quick self heal spells are about the only ones worth keeping up 24/7 because they have a much larger benefit.

    A warrior can use the entirety of his disc repertoire when ever he feels so inclined. Simply by making s hockey as long as it doesn't share a timer. If you could only keep 12 discs useable at all times youd understand that Knights cannot do tanking and utility at will to the fullest of either spectrum it is either 1 or the other. So you maximize a spell set to do the most of both and almost anything with a recast gets scrapped. Hi2 u dico
  13. Makavien Augur

    So, for the 12 years or so before you guys got any mitigation discs at all the entire game was broken and completely out of balance. Kinda of odd that the game was way more fun all that time than it has been the past few years ?
  14. Abazzagorath Augur

    Are you dumb? What do discs have to do with anything? You had a whopping 5% advantage over the past 14 years or so outside of popping defensive until defensive proficiency was created.

    The imbalance was warriors having INNATE 35% ALL THE TIME mitigation advantage over knights the last 2 years AND an avoidance advantage with the block portion.

    Turn last stand to 90%. I don't care. Disc tanking wasn't ever the problem with defensive proficiency.

    Personally, I find it really annoying and dumb that you warriors can't keep your argument straight. First its about knights replacing warriors as MT, then it's about knights being better on group content, then its knights having more utility, then you turn right back around to the first argument, shifting every time the hypocrisy/stupidity in your arguments is exposed so easily.

    Maybe you guys should be pointing out to the devs that last stand at 45% isn't a big enough advantage for disc tanking, and ask for a vie disc with a shared lockout with last stand so you can use situationally as needed.

    What's next? Want to whine about deflection lasting longer than your void abilities and therefore knights are better tanks?

    Any single person that claims it was balanced the last 2 years is an idiot or liar.
  15. Makavien Augur

    Shifte you chose a hybrid not a pure class ? Any slight disadvantages you gain from having the ability to use more and powerful things not available to the parent classes of your class is irrelevant .
    Because it was your choice since the beginning .
  16. Makavien Augur

    You know when last stand is down you just switch tanks and than it is the same exact thing except using multiple people instead of a single warrior actually being useful for more than 3 mins out of 10 which is why stances were even given to us along with 5 years of stagnation.
    While you guys received upgrades to tanking and healing those entire 5 years and we received more and more aggro ? You guys were tanking everything we were tanking over the last 2 years once the expansions were broken into just like it has always been so there was no huge imbalance you have other tools to make up for your lack of mitigation advantage. Melee and caster dps are not instantly falling over every time trash looks in their direction just like it has always been except on the few miscalculated and under tested big aoe rampaging bosses. So no you sir are the one diluting and lying to yourself.

    Please point me in the direction of your proof of this huge game breaking imbalance because I am a 100% raider in a mid tier guild and I have not seen a massive imbalance I did see where you guys needed some boosts like I suggested in the sk whine thread where I said you needed a version of flash (which you got) more ae aggro especially for paladins , More aa hate abilties to help you make seemless macros and a 15% defensive proficiency
  17. shiftie Augur

    Or maybe the disc system was created after spells and is more streamlined. You're saying that a players choice to not use spells with recasts because it is too limiting by way of the poor design of the spell system is a penalty for choosing a hybrid class? So it was ok for warriors to be upgraded from bash taunt kick when discs came out but screw the hybrids for choosing spells in the first place.

    I don't even know how you manage to feed yourself irl
  18. Warpeace Augur

    At this point in EQ I'm not seeing parent classes but very distinct classes. Sk raid role still lacking but very different classes.

    Parent class argument is a weak way to hold other classes down at this point in the game.
  19. Ravengloome Augur

    O good lord we are back to that 2004 logic again.
  20. Kamea Augur

    We had 15% innate mitigation before we got stances. It was nerfed to 5% after.
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