New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Time Burner 2, Feb 18, 2016.

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  1. Nightops Augur

    When did knights (paladins) get to be half cleric and all warrior?

    Not many people in here, certainly not paladins, think we can can perform at 50% of a cleric when factoring in duration... and if we can or choose to be for a short time... we drop the 'all warrior' down to 'no warrior'.

    I have yet to see anyone say they saw a paladin tanking 100% like a warrior and still performing at 50% of the cleric... all done at the same time and for the whole time a clr and war would be able too.
  2. sojero One hit wonder

    really you say knight, but sk isn't any cleric, they are part necro, I don't think you know what "knight" means sir, did you mean paladin?
  3. Battleaxe Augur

    Your 2H delays permit casting many spells without losing swings. When Splashing a raid or acting as additional healer for a melee DPS group you are not spending much time clericing - it's not generally Splash everytime it pops and melee DPS groups generally aren't tanking. Tanks are obtaining and holding aggro.

    What's your maximum heal when there's a badly damaged person in your group, a Cleric DArbs, and you group heal?

    Don't you have a Symbol AND Brells (and an Aura)? How much can you buff for? If you are grouped with a Shaman and both of you elect to use DPS mercs what major buffs are you entirely missing?

    How many total counters in a raid can you clear with 1 Splash?

    Paladins have a res spell, a res stick, and a res AA. What do Druids and Shaman (actual members of the Priest Archetype) have?

    Clerics have spells that affect undead. How good is Cleanse? Pretty good I'm think.

    I've heard of a Paladin moloing Mad Mary years ago. Now that might have been taking advantage of an design oversight but I assure you I'd definitely hesitate to try her back then with a Cleric merc.
  4. Kamea Augur

    The statement is fine as written. It's incorrect if you add a word that wasn't there to begin with (that word being "melee".) I simply meant burn DPS with a 2H equipped (aka -all- forms of DPS in a 2H burn), no where did I talk about melee only DPS. I only care about total DPS. I only care about total numbers in realistic situations, not this cherry picked parses crap people like Shiftie do.

    Please note earlier in the thread I talked in multiple posts about that the boss mitigation boost hurt warriors a lot more than knights given the fact that their bigger spell DPS wasn't effected by it.
  5. sojero One hit wonder

    Have you talked to some of your melee and caster, but more melee groups and seen how much damage they take to wild ramp, ae's and other crap during raids. it is insane how much healing some of them need during parts.

    Usually you don't put a paladin in the group to be a group healer if there is a cleric in there. If they are going to help them they just do the group heal part so that the cleric can concentrate on the tank, and the group heal is fine to do that job.

    Paladin surety is 1 hp less, just like bst focus is 1 hp less than a shamans, but their symbol is missing hte ac portion. They have brells, just as rangers have strength and bst have SV, guess I'm missing what point you are trying to get at.

    Um, druids and shammies have rez stick, its the same rez stick as paladins, they have call and out of combat 96% rez too! again I don't know what you are trying to bring up or if you are just ignorant to what abilities classes actually have.

    as to what you are talking about "cleanse" do you mean something else by chance, because that spell is a remove 30 corruption counter spell.
    Nightops likes this.
  6. Battleaxe Augur

    Potential. Wasn't that the word Shiftie used when sticking it to Warriors?

    I've watched Paladins acting as demi-Clerics in a melee DPS group in raids. For every AE heavy raid demanding maximum healing there's an event where they barely cast heals. Nice to be 100% Warrior and 50% Cleric.

    Paladin surety is 1 hp less and you have Brells. Nice to be 100% Warrior and 50% Cleric.

    Um so your Res is for all practical purposes just as good an that provided by full members of the Priest archetype. Nice to be 100% Warrior and 50% Cleric.

    Sorry, I meant Slay Undead. How is that Sir Cleric with a Sword?
  7. Warpeace Augur

    He just expects great things to come from Paladin but has no clue how and what it requires to make happen.

    Guess Warriors forget you need a spell gem to load a spell and not a space on a hot bar like their disks.

    Looks more like a game of darts with little kids, here lets take a handful of darts and throw them all at once and see if anything sticks and maybe hit the board.

    You might want to go back and do a little research as that's the most thing you have said yet today...they get the same things , slightly different but the same. Yep so much more than a priest.
  8. Warpeace Augur

    Sounds like you need to take your priests and do some OMM missions and raids so they can catch up the vastly superior Paladins for Rez sticks.:rolleyes:
  9. Battleaxe Augur

    Actually, we did - a Paladin insisted that we should. No spell gem required. No delay if you didn't have a spell gem with res on it.

    Must be kinda nice to be a 100% tank PLUS so many great priest-like abilities. There'd be fewer darts if there weren't so many inviting targets. Maybe we should talk about things Clerics have that Paladins don't have. That might work in your favor. We should probably stay away from "potential".
  10. sojero One hit wonder

    Oh so are you saying that druids are 100% wizards and 50% clerics during those same fights, or shamans are 100% something else and 50% clerics because they can do their other jobs too. You are an interesting cookie sir.

    LOL you do realize the only 2 classes that use surety is cleric and paladin right? everyone else wants symbol, which paladin doesn't get the equivalent to. Brells is only wanted by tanks, and no one else. If you think that 50% of a cleric is 2 buffs, you sir have other issues.

    Actually paladin res is only 90% while in combat, so its not as good, a call is usually better because at least you then have some endurance and mana, not much, but enough to get self buffs/breather started.

    and as to slay undead, really, your gonna hold one of the 2 unique things of their class against them (hint, don't think they care) that is usable on less than 5% of the games mobs? you are funny, oh and it doesn't even come up to that much added dps, its just pretty #'s to look at sometimes.

    while it is amusing, i don't think you know how/what makes up the %'s of a class, so your arbitrary #'s don't really mean anything.
  11. Warpeace Augur

    You might want to check the delay also there is a cool down, again your fact on a class are off base.

    Your just being impossible because no paladin will waste a spell gem on rez considering we have the AA one and rez stick, all things priests also have and you tried to make sound like only Paladins have.
  12. Battleaxe Augur

    All things priests have.

    Buffs, heals, cures, res, DI, anti-undead. Did we miss anything?

    And I was talking about the delay between putting the spell on the spellbar and it being ready to use. Res stick is ready (unless it's refreshing).
  13. Warpeace Augur

    Basically you have run out of garbage so grasping at any and every straw to continue your anti Paly run.
  14. Battleaxe Augur

    I don't think advising new players, especially if they don't raid (and Iirc 90% of all players are not raiders), to chose a Paladin in order to get tank parity (and spellbook superiority) as anti-Paladin.

    Nor is it suggesting they get onboard with the flavor of the month. Paladins have been OP ever since tank parity in the group game and a wide utility gap. It's what y'all whined for from the first "Defensive must be removed from the game or shared." on Paladins of Norrath till the present day.

    Surely you don't contend that other than my inadvertant use of Cleanse instead of Slay Undead is totally wrong/Paladins can't do any of that stuff.
  15. Nightops Augur

    So was this build-out of grouping done because of the recent stances given to paladins? Was the paladin in the DPS group in your MT order too or was he there to spot/group heal or for his 2h stance? Did you put the paladin in a melee dps group just for his melee dps and filled the spot over a different melee dps class (I hope it wasn't only for an undead raid boss because we all know the frequency of undead raid bosses throughout EQ history).

    Utility == Versatility
    Versatility =/= 100% Ability in all areas at the same time.

    Never did I say paladins couldn't tank or shouldn't be in a MT group. I've always said paladins have been able to do this.. and for many expansions prior to DP& KS. The whole paladin tank thing becomes much easier in elite guilds and even more so when the guilds are in farm mode... all of which you have listed. Thank you for your support.

    If knights are the elite MTs now by the opinions of many warriors on this thread, why are they not used to stretch out survival in order to see more of the event? That doesn't make sense that guilds would choose a 'less-capable' tank (war) to do the initial-harder job and only switch to the 'more capable' tank (knight) after the event has been learned and beaten a few times.

    Alright... warriors remain $$$ for non-elite guilds for the whole time they are learning an event (by your comments above). Oh.. and by the way.. non-elite guilds usually don't finish an expansion before the next arrives... that would make warriors $$$ for the whole expansion in at least some of the events. Even if they do beat all the events, no guild is going to tell the warriors.... thanks for getting us to this point... here's a lapel pin... see you next expansion cause we prefer to use knights now.

    What class which is considered $$$ in learning mode continues to be $$$ in farm mode? That's the whole idea behind farm mode... the event(s) have gotten to the point in which the guild can get a win without its best mix of classes/people.

    Ok... non elite guilds ... well.. yes, they are in farm mode for everything they have or are able to beat. But everything they haven't beat is loot which isn't received... every week. Elite guilds are able to win events and beat expansions within a short amount of time (1 month? 6 weeks?). That means, every week there-after, they are able to farm loot in every raid. While non-elite guilds are lucky if they get 3 or 4 raids beaten in that time. 4 or 5 months into an expansion, players in elite guilds have what... 15.. 20 slots of current raid gear while players in non-elite guilds have 2 or 3 on average. Do you not see how that makes tanking or even completing raids at a fast pace much harder?

    ***I have no intention to bash any one or anything about elite guilds. People in those guilds put in their work, give their time to the game, have the abilities to play at the elite level. They deserve everything they have done and will do in the game.

    Sure.. not trying to derail or arguee this point. However, those who did the things you have mentioned were the elite knights in the elite guilds on the server. Yes, the comparable warriors couldn't do those things. If you talk about group players and how the stances and KS effect at this level... then well.. talk about group players and how the stances and KS have effected them. Bringing elite knights down to the group level is and always will be skewed. What group-only knight was ever listed on any 'solo'd /molo'd' thread?
    sojero likes this.
  16. Nightops Augur

    If I could 'like' your thread more then once, i would have done it.

    And for his point about being in a group with a shaman and both using dps mercs... Sure.. the paladin could buff the cleric stuff to a lesser extent.. but chances are, one of them would just switch out the merc for a clr buff and switch back.
  17. shiftie Augur

    Lol Paladins get di now. Hahah

    My name has been mentioned more times in this thread than my entire time posting in these boards.
  18. sojero One hit wonder

    cause your famous or infamous, your gettin right up there with Beimeith, so its either one of your fault, somehow, for some reason.
    Warpeace likes this.
  19. Battleaxe Augur

    Potential Shiftie, potential. Your name is mentioned a lot more than just here btw. You're almost as famous as Furor except he got paid for knowing EQ inside and out (by a competing company) and he was more reasonable/less of a partisan.
    So many questions.

    We had knights doing more main tanking after we hit farm mode in the previous expansion.
    Afterlife had a knight tank all of PoTime while it was still current content. It's been like that for years. Some knights apparently are too impatient to allow their guild's Warriors their month or two of dying like flies while content is learned,

    Yes some guilds never finish expansions before the next is launched. That does allow Warriors to be the preferred MT on one event all of the time.

    You better believe some guilds move from 5 Warriors facing events to 2-3 Warriors in farm mode. Here's your lapel pin. Enjoy taking turns riding the bench (nice guilds rotate who sits out).

    Farm mode is when you move from being satisfied to just beating events to determined to clear in one day/getting all the achievements/outfitting players who magically show back up after missing Beta and learning mode. Are you new here?.

    30 guilds have beaten all of TDS out of 46 who beat the first event. "Elite" guilds get to wear endgame gear longer in the expansion it appears in. That endgame gear is not needed to beat an expansion. Less elite guilds enjoy endgame gear for a shorter period of time or are only partially geared up. You basically don't realize that there are a lot more elite guilds than you think there are and a whole lot more tanks geared up than you could possibly imagine (check Magelo Ranking for Warriors - you're in for a surprise).

    Um my alt Pally performed better than my Warrior main in a fair amount of content. In group content you can pick and chose. My Paladin chose well. You could reasonably argue that my alt Ranger did even better. He was moloing a couple of HA's for fun and profit. But he's not competition for a tanking slot - although he did tank those HA's in groups pretty frequently.

    I wouldn't advise new players to play a Paladin instead of a Warrior without good reason to make that recommendation.

    Nor would I say recent changes cap a loooooong knight and a dev's effort to usurp the Warrior boss mob tanking role after we enjoyed a couple of months in learning mode unless I saw that happening.

    The Warrior/Paladin utility gap is a lot wider than the Warrior/Paladin tanking gap amd Warriors eschewed utility in favor of being the best tank the day they rolled their character. Paladins and SK's didn't. Knights have a tanking role in almost every raid.
  20. sojero One hit wonder

    Well I guess best is subjective. When I rolled each of my tanks:

    When my wife and I started eq:
    My first tank because I wanted to dps/lifetaps and tank: SK
    My wife choose her paladin because we were gonna duo, so heals + tank: pal

    for when I was boxing, leveling up my wives wiz and my zerker:
    I wanted the easiest/best to box, I rolled a war.
    I wanted the best mitigation, I choose a warrior

    We knew that we weren't going to have the mitigation of the war with the knights. We also knew (relevant at that time) that we had a xp penalty, and that it was going to take more to make us the same.
    Warrior is the easier of the 3 tanks to play and level up. Knights take much more time in AA than a warrior does to do close to the same thing, why should they be that far behind? Do more for less, that doesn't sound like a good deal to me.
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