Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Time Burner 2, Feb 18, 2016.
Bards make everything better.../nod
Don't forget shaman. I'd trade like 10 people of (insert most classes here) for good raid shm
Except that's not what I said at all.....
You guys are so busy lashing out against anyone that holds an opinion different than yours, that you are now:
Not reading what others are actually saying
Purposely misrepresenting what others are saying
Making false claims about the abilities of Warriors both before and after the patch vs. knight abilities before and after the patch
Again, prior to the patch Warriors were far better tanks with better aggro control in all situations than Paladins except when the raid mechanics required splash heals for curing something or the mobs could be stunned. Shadow Knights were just wasted raid invites if you were actually sitting Warriors just to let the SKs come out and play for a night.
As an example, prior to the patch, you could use knights to tank and add or two during the waves for the first TDS one-off raid (since you guys love talking about TDS raids) but you were better off having warriors tank 4 or 5 each wave after wave. I specifically listed adds that a Paladin could probably out tank a Warrior and it's only because they can be stunned. That's the only reason. If you have other classes that can AE stun (like Enchanters) you are still better off using Warriors because they could also be rotated into the MT rotation if things really went bad.
You guys keep downplaying the huge benefits you had both in mitigation and aggro control. Especially since you were given so much instant cast "at range, at will aggro" on top of very good AE aggro utilities. Unless you and I were living in separate, alternate realities, then Warriors were not inferior to Paladins in any tanking situation outside of solo, molo, or stun tanking last month. No one really cares any more about what sort of balance existed 10 - 15 years ago.
Does that mean Paladins sucked before? Nope.
Does that mean Warriors don't need to have their DPS stuff looked at now that stances are "fixed"? Nope.
Honestly, if you read the current threads, and then go back and read things like this thread:
you'll have quite a laugh at certain posters that keep claiming things like:
So which is it? Were you guys so far out of whack with knight DPS before or are you just assuming we're all a bunch of dummies and we can't read or use a search function?
Or maybe you guys would prefer to keep on going with:
While ignoring the huge mitigation bonuses you had prior to the patch didn't help you survive things that were so brutal "wars can suddenly die" but somehow knights were just fine tanking them without those mitigation bonuses.
So which is it? Are they too brutal for even warriors to tank or so trivial that even knights could tank them?
like i have said b4 and will keep saying i dont feel knights tanking raid boisses is bad. my knights did b4 the buffs and they are still doing it . thats great for them i dont really care for that and i belive Triton as a guild has prolly the most balanced paladin, sk and warrior ratio then most guilds and we did just fine b4 the patch and we are still doing just fine as a raiding entity. I will say our knights did pick up a gaint bonus from b4 for sure and their "irrelvant" healing as ppl like to call it is not as irrelvant as ppl like to claim healing up towards 2-3+ mil worth of hp seems quite relevant to me in the raiding game .
Where the issues at hand starts going out of control is in the group content where most fighting takes place where self healing from both paladins and Sks once they got the stances now your terribly over powered. your new found mitigation + your self healing just makes u way over the top. as i have said in other threads a well played group geared PAL or SK no longer need a real healer with the new mitigation their heals now keep up with the inc dmg they take unless they do effectivly try to kill themselfs even then they will be hard pressed to die unless pulling 13 mobs without a real healer at their side.
This is where my main issue comes in as a warrior. wile 30% mitigation sure is strong in the group game no warrior have ever or should ever say diffrently. but the problem wasent as big as it is now cuz no matter how good we warriors mitigate we will allways need a healer there to pick us up. but atm pal and sks no longer need that , thats a big blow to warriors as a class that our value is now only good as a box tank and on equal fotting on raid bosses with our tank brothers. the issue now is your to strong for the group game and by you i mean PAL and SK and this is a big problem for the tank cant sustain them self. it shouldent be so hard to see this
Warriors cant wait for 6 mounths to have this fixed as our class is now matched in the raid game(fine by me). very underpowered compared to paladins and sks in the group game thanks to healing(aas and spells/leech effects) and downscaleing abilitys. this is a big issue for us Warriors that they should of adressed at the same time as they gave you guys the stances.
If our self healing was so strong before in the group game then nothing really changed at all did it? Oh sure people can go pull 13 mobs in current exp (lol) without a healer and dps them down, oh wait, we dont have the dps or mana pools to do that...... yes it has made pulling 3-4 in current with a merc healer something trivial for a raid geared, for a group geared prob 2-3, after that you still have to click discs, and start stacking stuff. Guess what, war have some amazing things that stack on top of dp and LS that make them even better at that.
I don't know where all the wars are getting some bright idea that knights are going swarming end game zones without support or outside heals. This just doesn't happen, when you have a hp pool of 160k (+ lower ac than a raid geared) and mobs hitting for 15-20k the limiting factor is your hp pool and taking a single round from X amount of mobs that will kill you, well, that is only 4 mobs hitting you 3x each in one round for 15k each and your done. and the mobs in crypt of sul and ruins can do that easily. The real issue is what you perceive because you are a raid war and see what a raid pal/sk can do in the group game, which I do admit can be sick in the right places, but its not what anything is tuned to, and never should be.
Yes, warriors were decent damage per second: we could DPS for literally 1 second. The point of the post of mine you quoted was that warrior DPS was straight up broken outside of the heroic blade stack. FYI, I was actually making fun of people who see 20s warrior parses and come to conclusions off of it, like Shiftee used to.
Even with the pre-nerf HB+stance+S&B, our 45s burn was below both pal and SK. FYI, SK's also have a version of heroic blade. To my understanding, some/most SKs also used S&B for the heroic strike before stances, although I'd imagine it didn't get modded as much as our's did pre-nerf.
It may be possible to still do the HB+S&B+2H stack by buff blocking def prof, I don't care to try it. Regardless, my in game HB's are radically lower since the patch, and lower burn DPS results from it.
Lol you mad bruh?
Despite your fantasies of where I got data I actually logged into beta and parsed all three tanks. Repeatedly - for hours to garner any data I spoke about. You don't know me and you don't know about anything I contributed. Your random fixation years after it happened attempting to tie blame for your short comings is laughable. I didn't make statements based of random in game parses on flash in the pan raid burns it came from parsed data from beta buffed toons with me behind the wheel. Maybe your just mad that my beta buffed warrior played by a guy only familiar with warrior abilities inside beta was able to produce better results than you were capable of after years of practice. The world may never know.
I do find it comical that my name carries so much clout, that you feel the need to name drop me every time you try to prove a point. The sad thing is every time you do it you discredit yourself because people are more likely to believe me and my parsing and play than your tears years after the fact.
When you try to discredit a guy who made positive contributions to a class the game and ultimately the archetype to prove your point try again.
Please do keep dropping my name though I appreciate the notoriety.
Shiftee, Kleitus quoted an old post from me. But if you must know. After you lobbied for the ISS nerf while not understanding what Warrior's Opportunistic Strike was, I pretty much equate you with walking up to a mob after someone got a single RNG-dependent big crit and crying "OP, OP!" Heroic Blade was pretty much Opportunistic Strike for the modern day, why it made me think of your ISS nerf calls.
Even today, short duration warrior burns are too dependent on the RNG of literally 4-5 hits. Pally burns are based off of a larger number of procs/nuke thus are much more consistent.
I never based war burns off opp strike.
Regardless burns aren't in a vacuum. If you can do something it counts to some degree. While slay undead is limited when counting paladin dps it has always factored in. My goofing off burns as well as others in the pal community with 7th in fully stacked raid groups were used to nerf valorous rage. Fair is fair. I never lobbied for an iss nerf. I lobbied that a shield defensive set up ought not to be the best dps set up ie there should be some trade off.
Once upon a time paladin righteous indignation line a 2hs skill attack (4 hits) was modded by SS under burn conditions it was beneficial to bandolier and then fire the ability. It later got nerfed into a proc. It made no sense. It was cool and op and fun but it didn't make it right. Just the same as using iss to mod OS in a burn that starts at 20% to land the hit. Clinging to abilities like that only hurts the class. The potential to do something always acts as a hindrance.
Examples. Slay undead - no live increase in dps because slay. Lich sting - no dps improvements because of healing potential. Last stand - nothing for 15 years because of bad design.
Op abilities are fun while they last but in the vein and importance of design and balance they often don't work out. Paladin splash was awesome it also hindered raid design, it is now neutered. What was once super awesome is now just a shell of what it once was.
To the point of this thread LS was horrible game design.
i did not claim u can kill 13 mobs in the end game zone at all you should re read what i said. and also if u read what i said i never brough up what a raid geared sk or paladin could do in group game i said group geared. and tanking 2-3 mobs as a group geared toon in crypt of zul at once without a healer is a bigt deal when you can continusly do it and as an sk or paladin in full group gear and you can. warriors cant tank that not even close without a healer. and thats what im talking about. theres no need for you to miss quote me or try to twist what im saying
We have never made false claims on what warriors are capable, contrary to what your colleagues and you did in the "How does the dev team see SK ?" thread.
When you (not you specifically but your colleagues etc) claim "Knights are one rounded in raid content", "Knights cannot tank stuff", you downplay indeed what knights can do.
We have never said "Warriors cannot tank stuff". And when you listed war abilities like this without knowing that they can be limited by the refresh time or mob hit rounds we needed to be there to correct it.
Nah, we never downplayed our mitigation power, contrary to you.
At range abilities ? Knights spell range is still 1000 x better than ours. They can grab the mob sooner than you very easily. Who has the "at range" advantage ?
At will aggro, the aggro you have now is as good as war one, and yes even after using my best aggro disc knights searching to put aggro on my mob come way much closer than before. So yes our aggro was better than yours, but it's equal now. I don't mind for aggro btw because I consider all tanks need to be able to hold aggro[/quote]
And so what ? you link an old warrior dps thread lol. You maintain that war dps is atm better than knight one ?
Congrats on quoting things out of context. Can you tell us the context where this thing has been posted ? of course not. It had nothing to do at all with knight versus war mitigation. Nothing at all.
The subject was if next warrior in the TO needed to dps the raid boss or be ready to swap it asap with the good proficiency. I was partisan of the second one.
Your attempt to try to manipulate thing here was just pathetic lol.
Guess I misunderstood, so what did you mean by saying this? so is the magic # 12, or 3, you leave a lot of ambiguity in there.
You did, without understanding what you were looking at. You cited Lilth parses multiple times in your posts calling for an ISS nerf.
OS only works if the mob is < 20%. Lilth burn was < 20% (which is quite uncommon in the game, mind you) and sometimes lasted just long enough to get 2 OS in, meaning it was a mob that could really be padded with 2 RNG-lucky OS without extra time to dilute the damage.
Obviously RNG plays a role in burns of every class. My problem with warrior DPS being based around 2-5 melee hits is that RNG of only 2-5 hits (today, 4-5 hits) can swing your parse by 10-20%. A given warrior's personal DPS vs the same burn mob will vary more week to week than players of other classes, given the greater degree RNG plays in the outcome.
Let me remind you about something. You are the guy that claimed warriors did more DPS than zerkers.
Some would argue the solution of giving full time 30% mitigation to all tank classes to dilute LS's benefit without nerfing it was even worse game design. Now we're in a situation where the melee damage of all mobs is boosted to account for it, and AE ramp is causing big damage to non-tanks.
That aside. What's your logic here? "I don't like LS, ergo I don't care what happens to war vs pal balance."
Since I'm unsure if you even play EQ...
The problem these days is that raid boss mitigation in TDS got a big boost (this got rollbacked, somewhat.) Most warriors don't have the 'max atk' gearing of melee DPS, and certainly don't have the atk buffs of melees on most raids. Since knight DPS is based far more on proc/spell damage, this change in the game didn't effect them as much. This is one of the reasons why knight v war DPS was unbalanced before knights getting 2H stance.
I said repeatedly war dps was fine to get boosted. I said war passive dps couldn't be boosted because of their high skill caps. Once you jack up war passive dps put them in a group fully modded and you've got balance issues. People can claim I said something that I did not say and try to skew it but it won't be true.
A subset of the war community argued with me regarding it. I had no problems with boosted dps it just had to be activated in ways like knight spells on short refresh. There were many warriors that didn't want more buttons to press and wanted to maintain the tradition of auto attack and win for sggro and dps. The game doesn't work like that anymore. So stop misquoting me based in your perception of what I said.
I know how os works. I know that I used to preload 7th glyph and all my dps undead spells and get put into dps groups for the last 20% of Lilith for the lulz. She would die in under 60 seconds and depending in proc rate I'd have uber high parses which just so happened to be the exact duration of 7th. Paladins got nerfed because of that stacking conflict. Which sucked for anyone that didn't have 7th. So if 7th parses counted so did war parses on Lilith. Your memory is rather bad.
I still play just not much as rl keeps me very busy.
Last stand held back all three tanks. It kept wars niche tanking that was only relevant in raids and for when mobs were overly brutal. It kept knights out of tanking when they should have been. And it stopped warriors from getting useful things to evolve the class. Every other class In eq evolved while wars held onto that one shiny ability. Look where it has gotten you. Why don't you have the same cool stuff knights have gotten? It's been 15 years of wars telling Knights they didn't deserve to be main tanks. So we got 15 years worth of utility items to bridge the gap of the identity crisis last stand created.
And as the dev team came to their senses over this obvious design flaw (Eli saw the writing on the wall as early as 3 years ago) we are now right back to square 1.
Wars never wanted balance. Why should any knight care about it now?
Nope, they should not have been equal to warriors when MT Raid Boss Mob. It has always been class niche for warrior since the start.
Also don't act like you are or have been a warrior friend, simply you aren't so as
We don't care of your opinion on warrior indeed.
Get benefit of your OP time, especially in group content where you are invincible now, but remember in term of class balance things don't stay the same forever.
You sir are correct, warrior tanking dominance has now been equalized, guess things don't stay the same forever, welcome to the party
Knight dominance won't stay this way forever, and things aren't equalized at all atm.
And we sir don't care of your opinion on Knights indeed.
A 15 % Def proficiency for knight was enough for class balance.
Little short sided man. Relative balance is good for a healthy game. Don't go down to the warrior pre-patch level of claiming everything is fine as is when it really isn't.
Let's be real...we all know these changes probably overshot it. Hopefully they can scale things back a bit to find a sweeter spot....say by removing our 5% AA and reducing the potency of our def prof.
I won't lie and say it hasn't been nice to be able to step in and contribute much more meaningfully to raids, but the balance is too heavily skewed towards us now.
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