New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Time Burner 2, Feb 18, 2016.

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  1. Triconix Augur

    So you're saying that knights don't try to time heal casts between hit rounds which is ~2 seconds give or take? And none of these heals have short refresh timers?

    You do realize you have Shield Flash or whatever it's called for knights on bad round? That's like the greatest tool for avoiding the next couple of hit rounds after a bad one. If the knight isn't using that to his advantage, well, the knight really isn't that great.

    And if your HP drops on a raid target and you die to the next hit round, your healers absolutely failed you. There's literally no excuse for not having above 120k hp by the next hit round, especially with DI healing for 60k. That has nothing to do with a lack of mitigation compared to a warrior. A person within 5-7% mitigation of the "best" tank shouldn't be worrying about dying in two hit rounds that often. If they are, the healers are just downright garbage or the tank is super under geared or doesn't know what he/she is doing.

    Is a knight heal going to save a person 100% of the time? No. But let's ask this: Is a warrior mitigating 15k more damage in two hit rounds going to save him 100% of the time? No. It always comes down to healer effectiveness and we help them to keep us alive in different ways: Knight self-healing and warrior self-mitigation. I'd argue that knight self healing puts them within the 98th percentile of warriors. That's pretty darn good, imo.

    And what the hell is that point of this debate? Knights can now tank literally everything in the game effectively. Are they going to be 100% on par with warriors? Well, I'd hope not because that's the whole point of the warrior class, or at least that's what I was led to believe for 16 years. Knights wanted to be able to tank more and tank effectively. They've achieved that goal. They can now be placed in a MT order with little drop off in case a guild cannot field the correct number of warriors or they feel like being in the MT order. I'm sorry, I'm just failing to see the issue. Why do knights continue to downplay their strengths, especially to me. I'm the least of your worries. I've not a single care that knights are as powerful as they are. I'm just pointing out the fact that they are powerful. I'm not the one calling for nerfs, reductions, etc. All I want is some friggin dev to take a look at warrior abilities and explain to me why they were ignored and why are they so darn bad?! You want tank parity? You got it. Let's not act like the gap is still glaringly large because you're just lying to yourself otherwise.
  2. sojero One hit wonder

    Currently, after reviewing lots of parses I would agree with this. We are taking a bit more damage, I take about 4k more per hit average than the wars in my guild, but I think I am a couple pieces of gear less than them, so that gap should close.

    My self healing makes up for that gap. Self healing is a bit more unreliable than mitigation, but at times it can also be way more powerful, so its an even trade off in my eyes.

    I have also been keeping a closer eye on my logs that I have been getting more geared up and there is no rounds other than powered up raid mobs that have 1 rounded me. I have had a couple rounds that were 160-180k but those are few and far between. Most of the time that I die is on 2 consecutive 100k+ rounds on an unslowed mob. Those usually happen because of a DD or dot mechanic coming into play at the same time I took those rounds.
  3. Warpeace Augur

    Or they are cherry picking and killing an undead mob with the Paly to get 80% more dps.
  4. Xanathol Augur

    You won't find anywhere where I stated healing had no value but while you say knights are downplaying it, you are way over stating it. Conversely, you are downplaying mitigation.

    12 / 24 / 60. Look up SKs and it should be fairly obvious what those are and why your idea of healing between every round every 2 seconds is ludicrous. And I guess we only fight mobs that don't push, fling, or any other number of mechanics to make casting more difficult.

    You do realize that you're being ridiculous, right? Maybe as a warrior you only take a bad round once every 4 minutes or maybe as a knight that's geared up in said content (which has always been the case - knights getting better after the content is on farm) but in breaking into the content, this SK certainly takes bad rounds a bit more often. Not to mention that flash usually gets used for its purpose - tank changes - and therefore is down almost immediately.

    Right so if you aren't rounded, its all on healing or being a poor tank... you should be embarrassed for posting that.

    Then your argument would be wrong.
  5. Xanathol Augur

    1. Knights breaking into content vs knights geared by that content has always been vastly different. It has been this way in EQ forever.
    2. No your self healing isn't because (a) mitigation happens every hit, far more often than your recast timers and (b) mitigation is reliable. No healer is casting heals based on expectations that you will double crit dichotomic or a twin cast proc. A healer can predict mitigation and alter their healing whereas your self healing has to be ignored because it could be non-existent or completely meaningless. Got a nice heal off? Congrats - you probably just got healed by a healer anyway or you weren't being given enough attention from the start. There are cases where it works out, but its not reliable or even common.
  6. Dre. Augur

    Is this where we bring up Lich Sting?
  7. sojero One hit wonder

    1. I am in a mix of cotf t1 raid to tbm raid gear, I would consider myself in the breaking in portion. You can look back at what I said a few posts ago about my parses.

    2. Yes but on the flip side if your healer just went oom cause of mana drain (V&V, Lady skull emote) then your self heal just did more than mitigation would have. There are two sides to that coin, and I stand by saying that our lower mitigation (not by much btw) is well worth the healing trade off and all that comes with it.

    We are in the best place we have been in tanking in many many years.
    Dre. likes this.
  8. Kamea Augur

    Any single healer isn't going to land heals between every round, so it's a fallacious argument to begin with -- what knights in this thread constantly fail to realize is that self healing when boss tanking is essentially just adding another healer, it's no way a "Knight = primary healer, or bust" deal. What self healing does is increase the average heals you get between rounds thus increase the average HP you enter rounds with thus increase your chance of survival.

    Healing is a quantity game.
  9. Triconix Augur

    This made me laugh. You do realize that most clerics are multibinding, yes? What alterations are they making when spamming a single button?
  10. sojero One hit wonder

    They can take another shot with their other hand and that twitch will alter their multibind, dun :)
    Triconix likes this.
  11. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    Only if you actually acknowledge that it only provides significant healing for the 90s that Visage if Death is running out of every 12 minutes? Outside of that on raid content it's not an overwhelming amount of healing given the poor nature of SK melee dps.
  12. sojero One hit wonder

    I don't think you appreciate what 70% of 8k dps is sir! its amazing! for 90 seconds out of ever 300.
  13. Xanathol Augur

    How fast to spam it...
  14. Xanathol Augur

    Knights fail to realize that? You guys are the ones making it sound like a knight is healing after every hit and thus somehow is equal to never taking the damage in the first place...
  15. Triconix Augur

    Lol now you're just arguing for argument's sake. The word spam infers that a person is rapidly pressing it. You're reaching here, bud. Just give it up already.
  16. Xanathol Augur

    I take it your magelo is dated. Just last night I was purpled multiple times on V&V with RB + Mantle running and my magelo shows better stats than yours currently.

    If your healer just went oom, your self heal just did nicely... and then you're dead because your healer is oom. I don't disagree that we're in the best place tanking wise in a long time - I just disagree with the notion that SK self healing is worth ~6% mitigation. We have 1 truely worth noting heal when it comes to raid mobs and we can use that once a minute.

    Dre... really? Just to send home the point, considering you can get 50% from your friendly SK group member, you are pointing out that extra 30% on ~8k dps as 'reliable, fill the gap heals beyond Warrior mitigation' healing? It was funny enough that you said what you did, but I think you need to realize just how funny it was.
  17. Xanathol Augur

    I'm reaching? You're talking about SKs healing between each round and somehow being 98% warrior and I'm reaching? OK...
  18. sojero One hit wonder

    My magelo is very dated, I don't pay to keep it updated.

    Self healing as mitigation is just like regular mitigation abilities, it has time where its worth a ton, and times when it is worth nothing. Against mobs that can 1 round you (none in tbm that I have fought so far, since DP) but against a ton of weak mobs its worth its weight in gold, oh hello swarming!

    Mitigation on the other hand does nothing against any mob if you have no healing, sorry warriors no soloing for you! But against really hard hitting mobs, it allows the healers more leeway to heal you.

    Yes knights have to be more reactive since we take more damage, but we have the tools to do that. Warriors have better tools and ones that are usable more often to mitigate damage to help healers, but they have no way to replace any hp if something happens to their healers, like a stun, oom etc.

    We have many ways of healing ourselves that are worth while, they are more random though, which makes them really powerful at times, and lackluster at other times, and never consistent, which can be an issue for us. I love a 100k dire double crit, but it sucks to get a 16k non crit dire when you just took 100k in damage.

    You really should go recheck your logs and look for a single round of melee that could have killed you. I can find plenty from before DP, but none after, and yes even I still purple on V&V, but when I look at the logs and healing times, it was because of no heals between 2 rounds and not because one was large enough to kill me outright. I am rolling around 15k-16kac and 200k hp, 210k/16-16.5k if I am using geostone ps, but I gotta go farm another one of those, and its not high on my wants atm.
    Dre. likes this.
  19. Triconix Augur

    Coming from the person arguing the definition of "spam" :rolleyes:

    Sojero puts it great:
    If you're going purple all the time, I can most definitely bet my bottom dollar it's not from a single round. If it's caused from multiple rounds, your healers just plain suck. Sorry.
  20. Mistatk Augur

    So, before I type this, you've already said that knights DP is way over done?

    Ok. In the group I proposed, bard, ench, dru, are you suggesting the paladin would not blow the warrior out of the water on dps due to spam casting small nukes which will trigger ench aura, dru aura, bard proc songs?

    It wouldn't be hard to spam nuke a (not undead) crash test dummy, if you are really saying that you think warrior and paladin would be even in that situation.

    Are you saying that?
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