Need help with necro burns

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Nifty Slacker, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. Nifty Slacker Augur

    Thanks for responses guys. The dichotomic at rank one does about as much damage as a swift dot, so for me that's around 90k-100k on a crit

    Edit: I'm not in a raiding guild, so the longest fights are namers in sathirs tomb or something. They have a chunk of hp, but it takes around 2 minutes for some of them depending on me and the rest of the group.
  2. CrazyLarth Augur

    You can level Dico to Rk3 doing TBM Group Progression

    You need to click the rewards from the following Ach.
    Champion of Sul Vius: Demiplane of Life (Group) (10 Points) < > - can now cast Rk 2
    Champion of Sul Vius: Demiplane of Decay (Group) (10 Points) < > - can now cast Rk 3
  3. Siddar Augur

    You start off with silent casting and focus arcanum right at start off casting. Then you add other burn abilities later as your DoT stack reaches max size. Those abilities have varying durations. So you trigger them separately starting with the longest duration ones. Glyph of Destruction last two minutes while necro twincast last a bit over minute. That means most necros start glyph around 45 to 60 seconds before they start twincast. Other burst tools last various amounts of time as well meaning it is better to simply cast each between spell casting individually. You also have to take into account where you are in building your DoT stack as it will impact the size of your burn immensely.

    The counter point here is there is a huge difference between how you approach the mobs. Depending oh if you want to burst dps it or if you want acheave maximum burn. What you described is the approach you would take if you were just trying to do the fastest amount of dps in a short period of time otherwise known as burst. The average raiding necro is more focused on burning then burst. Burning take over three minutes to reach its max dps.
    Nifty Slacker, Brohg and menown like this.
  4. Ibudin Augur

    An actually useful discussion here, nice going.

    No mention of Mercurial Torment or Forceful Rejunviation benfits - each has its nitche.
    Having a plan as to when to burn is key, practice makes perfect.
  5. Brohg Augur

    Mercurial & Focus Arcanum are 5 minute buffs. Unless you know of some special use down the line, just fire them up on the pull - they'll last through burns and beyond.

    Force Rejuv isn't really part of necro burning, per se, as it's best (nearly its "only") use is explicitly outside burns, to get a second immediate Alliance cast. Allance doesn't benefit whatsoever from any of the various amplifiers, so its cast time should be when burns aren't running, as much as can be arranged.
    menown likes this.
  6. Ibudin Augur

    You can also get in an extra dico, skelly pets, and nuke ...along with that alliance, after clicking FR.
  7. Nifty Slacker Augur

    Thanks for keeping the thread going with good comments. I'm really focused on group dps, as I'm not in a raiding guild, but all feedback is welcome as there are other necros out there that may read this.
  8. Magickon Augur

    My main quandary at times is whether to activate gift of deathly resolve at the start of a fight that may not last very long, or wait until towards the end when wounds starts fading. The trouble is, if the fight doesn't actually go that long...then I've wasted the chance.

    And in some cases, it's whether or not to use the wounds spells at all! This is more of a "will the mob die in 60 seconds, or 180 seconds" kinda question, but we really don't have much in pure burst dps, by design.

    I'm ok with that, I do wish however that our base casting time of our dots could be decreased a bit though. Or at least have an AA that allows for faster spell memming time.
  9. Magickon Augur

    This looks really useful, but I'm not really sure how to modify the fields in the data tab as they apply to my character. I've copied it to my own google docs of course to allow for edits, but my spreadsheet-fu is pretty weak. Can you give me some pointers?
  10. Sancus Augur

    I changed the formatting slightly, hopefully it's a little clearer. I put a key at the bottom of the first sheet, but right now hard-coded values are in normal text, outputs are in bold, and interim calculations are grey and italicized. If you want to add a new spell, you should be able to auto-fill everything in grey italics and in bold, and the rest will need to be manually entered. Likewise, if you want to change values for a particular spell, you should probably be changing things in normal black font. The exception is for weird spells like Dicho and Wounds lines that are somewhat special cases; then you might need to manually enter some things.

    To modify it for your character, you're going to need to lookup what effects you have. I'd suggest raidloot, if you hover your cursor over a spell effect, it'll tell you the SPA and value. I also updated a list Beimeith made of Necromancer SPAs; I copied that into a google doc here. Here are the main things to look at, though (this is not all encompasing):
    • SPA 124: This includes your worn focus (e.g. Arms for Fire spells), Hand of Death, Funeral Pyre, Bard Aria, Emperor Ganak Familiar, etc. Spell effects, as a general rule, stack between AAs, worn gear, and buffs/songs. However, within each category, SPA 124 does not stack. That means if you have Hand of Death and Bard Aria on, Hand of Death is the stronger of the two and the one you enter. This SPA can be variable (e.g. 70 - 100%); within each category, find the average focus value (e.g. 70 + 100 / 2 = 85%).
    • Crit Rate: This will be based on your passive AAs, Epic, and any buffs on you. You gain 62% between Critical Affliction and DoN, and another 18% from your Epic 2.5. Auspice, IoG, FE, Bard Epic, etc all increase your crit chance.
    • Crit Damage: This is based on your passive AAs and buffs. Passively you have 375% crit damage. IoG, Third Spire, FE, Embalmer's Carapace, Glyph of Destruction, etc. all add crit damage.
    • Twincast: This is based off of your Mirrored Pestilence AA, Enchanter Twincast Aura, and Gift of Deathly Resolve. Mirrored Pestilence gives you 7% Twincast chance passively, an TC Aura gives another 11% at Rank 3. GoDR gives 100% Twincast chance to DoTs that use its counters.
    • Effectiveness: This is set to 10% right now because it assumes you have Eyes of Life and Decay. If you don't, change that to 0% (or a different % if you have some level of Eye of Decay). Bolstering Aura adds 4%.
    • Lingering Decay: Right now I'm using an excel function to look up the % based on the DoT's base duration. If you don't have that maxed or want to add a spell of a different duration you might have to play with that
    • Detrimental Extension: The DoT duration assumes 35% Det Extension and Tonic of Efficiency Affinity. DoT duration is a huge pain in the to calculate, so I decided not to actively calculate it. If you're curious how to find the average duration with other DoT durations I'm happy to explain how I calculated it.
    • Focus AAs: There's a "Focus AA" column. It assumes 16% for every AA that has a Focus AA, but if you have lower ranks you can change that.
    • Spell Rank/Type 3: It assumes Rank 3 spells and Type 3's for every spell. If you want to change that, edit the "Base Damage" and "Type 3" columns, respectively.
    • Right now it assumes you have an RoS raid BP. That's hardcoded in Pyre of the Shadewarden's SPA 302 column. If you have a different BP, you're going to have to edit something accordingly.
    Again, there are more things, but these are the large ones that you'll probably change a lot. Hopefully that makes sense. I know it's complicated, but unfortunately EQ spells have a large number of variables, and then a large number of effects that alter each individual variable.

    If there are other questions please let me know.
    Magickon likes this.
  11. Magickon Augur

    Wow. Thank you!
  12. Ravanta Suffer Augur

    I've made something similar, but much simpler (used base tick damage only, and if I'm not mistaken I think your values for the wounds spells don't include unequipping the earring while you are casting them...I could be wrong, my spreadsheet-fu is not very strong) for myself since I wanted to re-tune my spell sets with a couple of events in mind.

    I'm curious why scourge of fates and grip of kraz are not present on your sheet?
  13. Sancus Augur

    The wounds values are with an ear extension. You can change its duration if you so choose, though.

    Scourge of Fates not being there is just an omission, it probably should be. I was under the impression Grip of Kraz had stacking issues with other spells because of its debuff components, and that disease spells are generally quite weak (which it does look to be). I could be mistaken, though, and it doesn't hurt to add it. I'm not a Necromancer, so this was done from a fairly theoretical perspective.

    If you want to add those, it shouldn't be too hard if you copy the spreadsheet. Otherwise I'll likely update it after TBL comes out. I have a fair number of spreadsheets for a fair number of classes at this point, so those'll be updated as time permits.
    Ravanta Suffer and Brohg like this.
  14. Ravanta Suffer Augur

    Cool, cool. The spells do stack. The disease dots are by no means the best spells, but they have their place on a spreadsheet.

    PS, scent of extinction does raise the damage on the disease dots. For your theorycrafting purposes, perhaps the assumption could be made that scent of extinction rank 3 would be on? Surprisingly, the amount raised is per tick, not the overall spell damage as you would expect. Nerf incoming in 3....2....1....
  15. menown Augur

    A nerf to an underpowered ability is absurd. Necros are just becoming too paranoid at this point with change.

    Mourgis' Decay Rk. III (Lvl 106 Disease DoT)
    2: Decrease Current Hit Points by 2019 per tick.

    Scent of Extinction Rk. III
    1: Increase Spell Damage Taken by 401 (Before Crit)
    5: Limit Resist: Disease

    Grand total of 2420 per tick. That is about a 20% increase. But so what! It is a 40,100% increase to another bad spell called Disease Cloud. Our disease lines have pathetically low base damage. Let's compare Mourgis' Decay to a Fire DoT with the same duration.

    Burning Shadow Rk. III
    2: Decrease Current Hit Points by 2891 per tick

    The fire DoTs base damage is still incredibly higher than the disease DoT with a 20% increase. Oh, and don't forget that on raids your fire DoTs will see an increase from Overwhelming Sunray AND Skin to Sumac.

    Overwhelming Sunray Rk. III
    1: Increase Spell Damage Taken by 574 (Before Crit)
    5: Limit Resist: Fire

    Skin to Sumac Rk. III
    1: Increase Spell Damage Taken by 2% to 12% (Before Crit)
    5: Limit Resist: Fire

    So now a fire DoT (Burning Shadows) with similar duration to our disease DoT is doing a base of 3534 - 3811 per tick.

    Looking at a Disease spell with higher base damage now, Hoshkar's Swift Sickness.

    Hoshkar's Swift Sickness Rk. III
    2: Decrease Current Hit Points by 11874 per tick if Not Raid Boss

    This DoT will do 12275 per tick with Scent of Extinction. That is about a 3% increase. So you telling me that our underpowered debuff is going to get nerfed? It should be boosted if anything.
  16. Ravanta Suffer Augur

    Hey man, can you slow your roll? Nothing you are saying is wrong, but you're derailing the topic here. I just made the comment about nerf incoming, in jest, because as I'm sure you would agree, a lot of the spell focus options do not help us in any way. or minimally. Spell damage does not work on dots, thread of potential does not work on dots, the list could go on. I'm sure if you looked hard enough for it, one of the comments I made previously is that I felt it curious that scent of extinction did not also increase poison damage. Our poison dots are good, and worth using.

    I wasn't saying anything you or another active necro wouldn't know, I was only mentioning it for the benefit of Sancus. He's not a necro main obviously. I just thought it was worth mentioning for whatever his purpose was on the spreadsheet, that grip of kraz "deserved" a spot on the sheet if livanius did!
  17. menown Augur

    Sarcasm is not easily observed through text. Forgive me if that is the case. However, that being said, be careful with what you say sarcastically here. Devs and others will think otherwise without spending time to understand the context.
  18. Sancus Augur

    Interestingly, I guess when I made the spreadsheet I did partially set it up for disease DoTs. A disease SPA 297 value is already one of the inputs available and if the resist type is set to disease, it will properly attribute that damage to the spell. Truncations notwithstanding, the theoretical calculations should be pretty on point, so SPA 297 is added in properly. I never added any disease DoTs to use that functionality though

    I see what you mean about Livianus' Decay being there, which explains why I set it up for Disease. I'll add Grip, Scourge of Fates, and whatever the TBL one is called this week. I'll probably add in the new Focus AAs too. Presumably more AA are coming, though, so it'll end up somewhat out of date before long.
  19. Ravanta Suffer Augur

    For clarification, grip of kraz does not stack with grip of jabaum, so jabaum can be left out. :)

    Worthless jabaum...can't even get on a spreadsheet.
  20. Ravanta Suffer Augur

    Oh, wow...I'm an idiot. Threads of potential does benefit us. I must have made an error when confirming that for myself.

    I'm not sure what I was smoking at the time, oh well. I wonder if when I went to test it, I grabbed the wrong belt from the bank.