Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Ilyanir, Apr 18, 2018.
Still so much stupid going around I see.
Big difference between having a old item in your bags that you click for a effect and one you have to have equip to get the worn effect form it.
The click effect of all the 2.0 can still be used at 110(though some have gotten better items with the same click effect on it by now) it was the worn effect that for everyone but necros got a level limit on it. and that what we talking bout.
There is no promise. Never has been. If there were, so many other class changes wouldn't have happened. Even if there was, it was made by people no longer working there, so its not valid.
Its plain to see that the correct way to deal with the most OP item in the history of the game is not to grant its power for free without even using the item.
That seems like an intentionally biased and hyperbolic (not to mention objectively incorrect) way to phrase that.
18% crit chance is not some unheard of or game-breaking effect, it's something that's offered in various (and often much larger) quantities by passive AA and numerous spells. It's one of (although not the) strongest items the game has seen, but items in EverQuest contribute such a small portion of a character's power that that's not really a reasonable assessment of the effect.
I think the better question in terms of game balance is to assess whether an additional passive 18% crit chance is mechanically beneficial or not. At a basic level, it makes a lot of sense for sustained DPS classes to have higher passive crit chances, because it doesn't boost burst DPS at all. There are mechanical cons as well, but it doesn't seem to me that 18% additional passive crit chance is particularly unconducive to game balance or the class's intent.
Now, there are other ways to achieve the same result, but hyperbolic characterization of the effect only serves to distort the discussion.
The most ridiculous aspect of the necromancer epic is that the 2.0 and 2.5 effects stack.
 Empowerment of Shadows
Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
Duration: 3.3h+ (1950 ticks), Dispelable: Yes
1: Increase Chance to Critical DoT by 10%
Increases the effectiveness of your epic focus.
 Dark Whisper
Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
Duration: 3.3h+ (1950 ticks), Dispelable: Yes
1: Increase Chance to Critical DoT by 8%
Increases the chance of your duration damage spells causing critical damage.
If they made your epic focus an AA you would only get the 8% or the 10%. You wouldn't get 18%, because they're clearly not meant to stack. And if they did this, all necromancers would complain they lost 8% crit rate.
But I'd personally be a big fan of them removing epic 2.0/2.5 focuses and making them AAs and removing level caps on them. Let all other casters get that sweet sweet 8% decreased aggro generation.
Even more opinion tossed around as fact.
During their last offer we told them to give us 10% passive, if you had 2.5 epic, via an AA line. Or move the focus to gloves even if they made it 8% for all just to be done. This removed the extra 8% stacking that was never intended. They declined to go that route.
There is more opinion and inaccuracies in this thread than anything else.
Apologies. Many necromancers would complain. All was too encompassing.
Someone will always complain or would complain that no one was complaining. That point can't be helped. But the devs making changes based on the most vocal board thoughts at that moment or because some lucky post that caught one of their eyes at the right moment should never be an agent for change.
The necro community isn't what it used to be even just a few years ago but a change like this or the dot revamp should have never happened behind closed doors without at least CRT member or knowledgeable player feedback. Or we end up with the messes we have seen the past 2 years with winging dot revamps out of the blue.
Its gotten to the point that it really seems like the devs are going to just make up some elaborate overly complicated changes just so they did it on their own rather than following any previously provided example that got them to the exact same place but that would have taken a few months instead of 2+ years.
Of course an innate 18% passive crit would be beneficial. That isn't in question.
I'm not being hyperbolic. To balance a change in the necro epic, you must consider the game as a whole. EVERY class had to make a decision as to when they should bag their epic (for most it was rather easy to do lvl capped effects).
To balance this change you need to consider:
1. Necro epic 1.5/2.0/2.5 is the most powerful item in the history of the game (And probably will never be eclipsed)
2. The equivalent focuses all other classes received from their epics were capped and lost LONG ago.
3. The small offset to the power the item gives is no access to 2h staves or better stat primary items
4. The idea that ALL recent necro spells have been balanced around the epic doesn't hold water. Its obvious that all the potential adps combinations get too complex for the devs to keep track of when making spells. Hence on new expansions, some classes can suddenly become OP.
If this wasn't true, you wouldn't have situations like berzerkers doing 2x wizard damage for 1-2 expansions.
This point is basically moot though if they change the epic while changing necro spells anyways.
Simply turning the necro epic focus into an AA gives them all the benefits of their epic forever with no drawback. Which has MAJOR issues:
1. All other classes had to give up their epic focus. This would be grossly unfair
2. Necros don't actually need the a major boost in all realms of dps (which this would give). Yes, in quick kill groups they suffer. But no necro ever posts their raid dps. Which means they are doing just fine in that area.
You clearly didn't read my post, or are too intent on your point to understand it.
I don't think he actually raids at a high level or plays with strong necros based on other comments he's made in the past. Go and look at his post history or read through some of the comments in the "crit chance" thread for casters.
I miss Greydeeds!!! #rants #2.5OrGoHome #NothingToSeeHere
They also had a unique opportunity to do the DoT consolidation during RoS beta, since it's probably the last level increase expansion for awhile, but they didn't do that either.
Truthfully, necros need more than consolidation to actually solve the issues. I mean, they'd still have like 14 non-swift dots even after consolidation, which I suppose is a minor improvement, but hardly feels like an actual solution.
I play my paladin more than I do my necro these days but it seems like the fate of the necro epic should be intimately tied to the dot revamp. I think the devs should ask some of the top tier necros to copy to a test server (whether THE test server would work for this, I don't know). These guys would then parse themselves out on test dummies with solo, group, raid spell sets to get a baseline of what current dps is possible in each situation (Leaving out adps considerations, just self-buffed damage). These baseline parses would be performed with the Necro 2.5 equipped.
After that, use some of the excellent suggestions for specific spell changes proposed in the RoS Beta forums and start modifying the spell data while capping the epic at level 75. They can determine what they want to stack and how much it should be hitting for until the baseline and altered spell parses are similar.
Theoretically, they would have achieved their goal of eliminating the epic, reducing the number of dots that have to be cast, and keeping damage similar so they don't have to go adding the focus as an AA or an equipment slot, etc... It also gives the devs some flexibility of extending the dot crit chance AAs in the future and having it be a real, functional upgrade again.
There could be some edge cases that would show up (TLP necros might see a nice bump in dps since they would benefit from retuned dots and a usable epic focus for a period of time), but it should get them in the ballpark without breaking the class.
No one else gave up critical rate, critical mods or other burn tools to get what was 650%-800% increases in base dot power in some cases. Obviously necromancers won't see that drastic of a change but our epic has nothing to do with that at all unless that want to make it more complex or hide changes in muddied waters.
I think it was VoA or around there when they boosted nukes for some classes much more than usual and/or added a newer massive base damage nuke. No critical rate or critical mods were taken away first.
The oppressive Patriarchy of the Burstained continues it’s reign of terror, yes sir.
One day we’ll be freed from their despotic rule, but for now all we can do is keep up the good fight!
It doesn't matter, at all, whether necromancers lose 18% critical or not. People aren't getting the bigger picture. Should the changes happen, the DPS base line is going to be set at an arbitrary level, just like it was with druids, shamans, etc. Say you lose 25% DPS from losing 18% critical, would that matter when, after the class changes, the class does 300% more DPS than it did? Of course that's not a practical base line. But the bottom line is, why are you even arguing about this when the class itself is set to be changed so much in the coming days. What people should be focusing on is communication with the developers with respect to what's going to happen with necromancer spell changes and when.
It does matter because the end result isn't the only factor to consider. How a class gets to that end result does very much matter. Be it % of required adps to get to the same said results now or which part of a dps formula, base damage, is adjusted 99 times out of 100 when the devs want change. The class very wisely has seen that keeping a high self crit rate keeps us very self sufficient, eggs spread in a few baskets,which is part of the classes identity since inception. And that is something that typically remains untouched through nerfs or stagnation periods unless grossly out of whack, not the case here.
Necromancer epic has nothing to do with any said revamps unless they want to make it more confusing or complicated. Or they could just finally see reason and grant 8-10% dot crit rate passively via AA or hand focus and then cap our epic while simultaneously doing a base dot revamp. Leaving that variable alone, just changing it being from an item and removing the error, while then doing their changes.
Regardless of what they do with the epic at this point, I just hope they fix the debuff problem.
I hope they can do that and let us keep our epic. If they don't, I will wear mine as a badge of honor until the servers are shut down. I don't care about the extra stats even if the effect was nerfed.
No matter what they do at this point related to necros and revamps the debuff problem will remain. They acknowledged it was a problem a few years ago and then made it even worse. With the additions of alliances, synergy, debuffs attached to melee and revamping dots for classes who never used them first. They did the exact opposite of their stated goals and what made sense as far as reducing debuff bloat.
At this point they need to add at least 50 debuff slots to mobs or consolidate everything on a mob for every class like 1 druid debuff instead of 3-5, 1 enc debuff instead of 3-5, etc or find a way to have one window for debuffs and one for dots each allowing 97 or whatever it is slot wise.
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