Necro swarm pets since the patch

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Malaari Manaburner, Feb 17, 2016.

  1. Iila Augur

    Here's what the changes look like:
    (I just picked the highest level one, these changes go back to spells in the 60s)

    [45148/2644] Kirchen's Chill Rk. III
    Classes: BST/104
    Skill: Conjuration
    Mana: 1278
    Mana: 7781
    Target: Single
    Range: 200'
    Resist: Cold -10
    Focusable: Yes
    Trigger Spell DS: Yes
    Reflectable: Yes
    Casting: 0s, Recast: 1.5s, Rest: 3s
    Duration: 42s (7 ticks), Dispelable: No
    1: Decrease Current HP by 1346
    2: Decrease Current HP by 1800 per tick
    1: Decrease Current HP by 26463
    2: Decrease Current HP by 11128 per tick
    3: Increase Poison Counter by 18
    Text: You are struck by an icy chill.

    Assuming your dots where changed in some way like this, to only allow one dot from each line to stack per a necro, what changes to your other spells would be needed to keep you from having ~45s of dead time before your dots needed refreshing? How is your gem downtime spread out after casting the set of current expansion dots? Do they all fade in sequence, or is the recast in a different sequence?

    I doubt that you'd be getting a 5x multiplier for the base damage of your dots, but it looks like something similar is coming. And I'm not sure if this is coming from Aristo or Dzarn. But there might be a chance for your feedback to get your support spells in order for it to not wreck you.
  2. Vivamort Augur

    Last Beta, I think it was, when they made an effort to nerf the epic, they raised our damage per tick, and found that was way worse than leaving the epic alone. As the epic just increases our sustained, but better base damage, makes our burns go up immensely (see mana burn and how it was best for necros).

    As to what changes would need to be made, to make sure we didn't have a ridiculous amount of downtime if they linked spell lines: they would be to make the dots shorter.. which means increasing the base damage. See above paragraph, and how quickly they nerfed quick dots for raids after they came out for how that will turn out. And just how short would they have to be... umm maybe nuke fast (as in they would be instant instead of dots so they can be tuned more easily). especially if they wanted to allow us to mem other spells like mana tap (if the cast time was reasonable). or rez spell (thank you for the timer reduction on the AA rez!) or other utility we supposedly have for raids.,. but do not use because of spell gems being too valuable for our main, and preferred, role of DPS.
    Bobsmith likes this.
  3. Bobsmith Augur

    Like Vivamort said this was tried in beta and to anyone that was/is crying that necros are op never saw those beta numbers. Every necro on beta was like "wow yea this isn't right" it only lasted a week tops and they scraped the idea and said that necro dps is fine where it is. I would quote it but can't access the beta forum to do so. That being said f2p nerf is still in place with no further dev communication. Threads locked for being nonconstructive, threads all out deleted, and some merged all about the same thing. Yet this one is still alive and well, someone is reading it and sadly no replies. To the death of a class #cheers
  4. Vrinda Augur

    If this goes through to live a week from now (and face it, they rarely touch anything after it's posted to the test server even when it's flat out broken), BSTs will be next on the nerf chopping block. The DD associated with it is nearly at the same level as the mage 105 spear (26463 vs. 29731), and the 42 second dot that follows it up is several times more powerful than the highest non-swift necro dot, Jorobb, base damage 4243 for 30 seconds. It is, in fact, perilously close to the dot damage on necro swift dots - the ones they nerfed to cause a lot less damage on raid targets.

    Oh! And don't forget the cast time is 0s so as not to be interfere with, or be interrupted by, melee. In the hands of a BST who knows what s/he is doing, this will have startlingly similar results to those of necro dots affected by mana burn. That 26463 DD will also be affected by mana burn, so yeah. I expect BSTs to be topping parses a week from now by a large margin.
    One of the challenges with necro dot stacking has always been reapplying dots just as they're wearing off. No more variation with 30s, 42s, 54s, 1m 24s (all suitably extended by gear, AAs and pots, of course) to have to work around. If the devs' vision is reducing/standardizing duration and increasing damage to compensate, a lot of that challenge disappears.

    People who "have" a necro will largely stand around during that dead time before dots need to be refreshed. The people who have played a necro main for sixteen or seventeen years will find other ways to add dps during any perceived dead time. We are, of course, talking about raids since those are the only mobs that live long enough for a necro dot to run full duration and need to be refreshed.
  5. menown Augur

    The real problem is that DoTs have artificial recast timers. People complain about keeping a 60 second recast Dichotomic spell loaded all the time. Think of what necros have to suffer with. All their DoTs last from 84-180 seconds long.

    If DoTs were to be linked, I have thought of 3 additional options that would need to be implemented at the same time. Not saying there are only 3, but 3 that I have thought of.

    Option 1: All DoTs would need their base durations dropped to 24-30 seconds. All detrimental focuses will still effectively work on these duration. Any lower and you lose a big aspect of the game. This option still runs into some down time. The recast period would be from 78-84 seconds. Of course damage per tick would need to be adjusted.

    Option 2: All DoTs would need to tick faster than every 6 seconds. EQ is the only game I know of that has DoTs ticking on a 6 second timer. Making them tick every 1 second, 2 seconds, or 3 seconds. This option would reduce the artificial recast timer by 50-83% depending on which timer you choose. Of course damage per tick would need to be adjusted.

    Option 3: All DoTs need to stack. An example would be chain casting Pyre of Jorobb and having more of the same DoT on an NPC. This would completely eliminate the artificial recast timer. Problems include low incentives to cast DoTs that are less damage. This could be remedied by adding complementary debuffs to the lower DPS DoTs that would drive incentives up. Of course damage per tick would need to be adjusted.

    Note: Because all of these options are drastic changes, they would need to be implemented in an expansion where the level cap increases to level 110. Adjusting all DoTs down to level 1 is unrealistic.

    Edit: Now that I think about it, a combination of Option 1 & 3 might be the best way to go.
  6. Tevik Augur


    Perhaps this would be a good time to request additional abilities for your class. Perhaps a spell that somewhat mimics the Doomwalker's Synergy ability monks have (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=43945&source=Live). Perhaps it adds a debuff to the mob that will increase dot dmg, either of a certain type or just in general, but would require multiple necros working together and timing their casts in order to have it active all the time? I'm sure there are many other ideas that could be thought up to fill that new downtime and ultimately allow the class to grow into something even better than it is now.
  7. segap Augur


    It seems to me, that despite complaints of effort, that most of the good necros I know have a very perverse enjoyment of all the hoops they jump through. They enjoy the puzzle of optimizing spell sets and cast order. Would changing the current play style of raiding ruin the class for many of the die hards? Do they really want to have things simplified and play style reduced to something similar to the other caster classes?
  8. Ksenija Elder

    answered your own question.
  9. Iila Augur

    I'm not sure what game those suggestions are for. You should probably stick to ideas that can be implemented in Everquest 1 without rewriting the whole game.

    The numbers on those dots are insane. If BSTs have any decent level of dot support AAs, those dots are going to be very good. The DD portion can't be compared to normal nukes, though. It can't crit, because it's part of a spell with a duration. It can still be focused, but that's only +70-100%, no 5x crit multiplier like you'd expect. Their mana supply is going to be obliterated by those costs, though.
  10. Iila Augur

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/march-2016-patch-preview.231275/

    Called it. And Aristo is doing it, so none of your feedback is going to be read or acknowledged.
  11. menown Augur

    You were right Illa. Though, I do think Arista reads some posts. He did in Beta for us anyways. He is just not one to respond.
  12. Dolamight New Member

    This will be just like World of Warcraft then... Wow!!
  13. Enkel Augur


    I would love for raids to be more challenging here!
  14. Venau Augur

    If I'm forced to stack 11 super powered DoTs and then spam nukes during my deadtime.......ugh....game over. Way too boring. I'll find a new game.
  15. Krisiun Lorekeeper

    I'm glad I already did the awesome kiting from past expansions, I got a little depressed thinking any necro dot changes might kill kiting for leveling necros forever. rip
  16. Derd Augur

    If your dots do the same dmg why would it kill kiting, seems it would make kiting more efficient.

    As with every change there are many things to consider. One might be you could now have more necro's on a raid and still have debuff slots for all of those silly other class's with debuffs and dots. Some possibly even increasing the dmg your dd casters and dot casters do.

    Maybe it might make players level and play necro's knowing it's much more efficient and less stressful as currently played top dps necro involves.

    In the end after these changes dps guild wide goes up or stays even will be the real test. I just hope they remember bard dots have sucked for many expansions, give us some help too :)
  17. Teapot New Member


    Sounds like the Berserker's issue, or lack of ADPS. Not your wizards being gods.
  18. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    [45148/2644] Kirchen's Chill Rk. III
    Classes: BST/104
    Skill: Conjuration
    Mana: 1278
    Mana: 7781
    Target: Single
    Range: 200'
    Resist: Cold -10
    Stacking: Edoth's Chill 6
    Focusable: Yes
    Trigger Spell DS: Yes
    Reflectable: Yes
    Casting: 0s, Recast: 1.5s, Rest: 3s
    Duration: 42s (7 ticks), Dispelable: No
    1: SPA 79 Base1=-1346 Base2=0 Max=0 Calc=100 --- Decrease Current HP by 1346
    2: SPA 0 Base1=-1590 Base2=0 Max=1800 Calc=103 --- Decrease Current HP by 1800 per tick
    1: SPA 79 Base1=-26463 Base2=0 Max=0 Calc=100 --- Decrease Current HP by 26463
    2: SPA 0 Base1=-10918 Base2=0 Max=11136 Calc=103 --- Decrease Current HP by 11128 per tick
    3: SPA 36 Base1=18 Base2=0 Max=0 Calc=100 --- Increase Poison Counter by 18
    Text: You are struck by an icy chill.



    The nuke portion uses SPA 79 instead of SPA 0, which means it doesn't crit. I'm not 100% sure but it may not focus either, but I don't have a beastlord I can test it with. Even if it does focus, without being able to critical it is severely limited in it's damage potential.

    As for the DoT, Beastlords only have 28% DoT passive crit chance compared to Necros' 80%. Even with activated crit chance, it won't reach nearly the same levels as Necro DoTs because (at least according to Raidloot) Beastlords don't have Destructive Cascade/Vengeful Spirits which str the passive crit damage multiplier AAd for DoTs, which means when they crit they will only do 200% (+ whatever from spells) which is still way lower than what a Necro will have.
  19. Vivamort Augur

    Satan is correct. Necros boost dot damage A LOT, particularly when it is crit damage. Any significant increase in Base damage will make burns crazy. And Mana cost increases like that for necros, will take them out of the sustained DPS bracket...
    Vrinda, Sancus and Beimeith like this.
  20. Iila Augur

    It focuses, but can't crit.

    Should be like every other dot with an initial DD strike. Shm, bsts, dru, necros, and sks all get them.
    Sancus likes this.