Discussion in 'Casters' started by Nekk, Jan 12, 2018.
I don't think less variety in spell names absolutely equates to less work. Enchanters don't have to do /mems during a battle, that's a difference of kind not a difference of scale.
I found this quite accurate: "Here's the reality(albeit simplified): The better your guild gets (IE, the quicker raid targets die), the worse your Necromancers get"
I didn't expect this to happen in raid, but it sounds like the same problem in different scale, it's more of a design issue in my opinion.
1. Not according to the guy above, and last I checked, you haven't cited any numbers or any concrete comparisons. Just saying I know this guy who always makes top 5 doesn't indicate anything.
2. Most of my comment doesn't even refer to raid DPS, and even in the event that necros are actually okay in raid DPS, it doesn't change anything else I said. Being out matched by wizards and mages on raid DPS just makes it worse, but the class would be broken regardless because it is broken in the group game.
3. Your agenda has been obvious from the start of any thread you participate in. Might want to cut back on that, because it isn't helping.
I don't know. Just reading a necro guide gives me a headache.
Any number can be rejected, or accepted, on the basis of variations in organizational and individual performance. But every class has a maximum theoretic DPS that it can achieve, which is a direct result of class design. The closer the discussion gets to what the DPS is, the more useful it actually is.
For example... The claim has been made that necros can achieve much higher critical damage than other classes on their spells, therefore it's useless to compare raw spell numbers such as the 45,000 base damage enchanter spell to the average 4,000 base damage necro spells. I've yet to see this supported, except how absurd it is, that one spell from an enchanter can equal 10 spells from a necro.
First of all, I have no problem posting my parses and I've done so on this forum plenty of times in the recent past. Here's my parse tonight on ST3 which is the 'sustained' raid in RoS.
/GU Combined: A hexbone protector in 991s, 6027704k @6076314sdps --- #4 Kizant + pets 364115k@367052sdps (369285dps in 986s) [6.04%]
As you can see that is hardly 600k and btw I lost to Shennron. Now, I have no idea why in the world you think a necro should beat a wizard in DPS in the first place but both classes are pretty competitive and that's just fine with me. And if some of other unnamed class is doing a lot more DPS then that's a problem with that class being op not with necros or wizards. And let's not even talk about where rogues are in comparison.
Just a few posts above I said that I agree that necros need some help and I was referring to the group game. So, what's my agenda exactly? I'm just pointing out that their raid DPS is still good and while their group DPS is on the low side they can still solo/molo a lot more than a wizards. So, although I think they could use some help I don't exactly think it's a huge crisis or anything. The dot revamp is obviously a huge concern for the buff slot limit and I can understand wanting a less complicated setup and a small group DPS bump is reasonable. But the class is pretty far from broken unless you're one of those people that are unhappy unless you're the best at everything all the time.
This is borderline. Can't decide whether this is meant to make me laugh or cry.
How much DPS do you think necros even do in groups? Small group DPS increase? Do you not realize the class is set up such that you have to cast three spells to match one spell from another class in terms of DPS? How long does it take to cast three spells? How fast does the average group kill?
The class is broken because the entire principle behind its design is broken. The class literally has spells that last over a minute and which do 2,000 base damage every 6 seconds, at level 110. You can't brush this aside and say it's not a big deal, just like you can't say a class having to combat memorize twice as many spells as can be memorized, in order to do what it's supposed to do, is just a trivial issue.
It's broken because it's broken, at a game play level, at a balance level, at every level except for maybe raid DPS which I guess is still controversial.
It's not a big deal.
Because, again, hella disingenuous. That the spell Mourgis' Decay exists means no more than that the spell Cortexfreeze exists. No one casts their bad spells, you don't get to point to them as an argument for class imbalance.
That real issues exist is not carte blanche to make up any you want
You need to read the spell list again, because there are many spells from 106 to 110 that do 2,000 to 3,000 damage base. The highest base damage in that range does 5,000, outside of quick spells that can't be stack multiple times, due to how fast they wear off against how long it takes to cast again.
Saying that this is not representative of what necros actually do... Is to pretend that necros don't have 6 or 7 spells from 106 to 110 dedicated to this concept. You're the one who's not looking at the picture of what the class design says. Yes, you can limit yourself to only the highest damage spells from 110 and 105, but what's funny about that is that it breaks both the gift - as well as any on spell with level limit - mechanic, and still doesn't do much more damage.
Evidence, in case I'm challenged on this:
Any class, half of whose spells are considered useless, is already a broken class by design alone. But what makes it worse in the necro case is that the remaining spells that are considered worth using, still doesn't address the class's group DPS issues.
You can't get more broken than this, outside of maybe doing level 100 DPS at level 110.
As far as I could tell necros do about 1/2 the DPS I do in groups. They've always done a lot less for the same reasons you're listing so it doesn't seem that strange. When I said small I was thinking like 20% more or something but I've put like zero effort into figuring out what would make sense.
I don't think anyone disagrees that you have lots of small damage dots. Just because you have a spell doesn't mean it makes sense that you use it all the time or at all. I've got like 13 nukes I literally never use because they're terrible. Do you have enough quick dots for the group game? Maybe not but that seems to be what the question should be.
Yeah, because necros have been broken in the group game for fifteen years. Ever since the change to mana regeneration.
The original design, which I'm sure has long been forgotten, was that wizards, magicians, etc. could cast maybe one or two spells per monster, because they regenerated 20 mana every 6 seconds, so could get enough back, maybe, for a spell a minute. Fights were slow, because anyone who did a burn, would be sitting on their for the next 15 minutes. Necros had much better mana regeneration and mana efficiency, so by logic of balance, their spells couldn't be used to burn. They were the masters of sustain by a giant advantage.
Then came out of combat regeneration, massive increases to mana return across all the classes, and a focus on killing monsters as fast as possible, because why not? The necro mana regeneration advantage became virtually irrelevant. But the class still maintained the same philosophy... Why? Because of tradition?
It's the principle that's broken. You talk about having more quick spells, but none of them can be quick enough, unless the tradition itself is abandoned. 50% of a necro's spell book is dedicated to slow, damage over time spells, because tradition. Then 20% of the rest is completely worthless utility spells like -2 level limit mez and 50% undead slow, leaving just 30% to be useful spells like pets, direct damage, fast damage over time, and life draw.
Which class has 70% of its spell book tied to a dead tradition? There's no reason why necros should have to take 15 spell slots to do raid DPS, or combat memorize as a matter of rotation. This is broken design and it will never be fixed until it is admitted.
That's the whole purpose of this thread. Admitting that necros are broken and that the spell list and game play need to be changed completely. You don't fix a class like this by saying - give them a few more quick damage spells and call it done. That doesn't work, because players will always try to squeeze the most of their characters, and that makes it impossible to ignore the other 70% of the class's spells, in which case the game play remains the same and the problem is just pushed further down the line.
You fix a class like this... By removing every spell that's tied to a dead tradition, and starting over.
NEC dps relative to other classes are very different in guild that take a long time to kill stuff. Im pretty much untouched in a lot of raids, but we take 15+ min to beat Fell Foliage for example. How long does it take a guild like RoI to beat OT?
Not going to get into this muddy mess of a debate except to say I the big event everyone points to is actually an AE event for dotters. Comparing single target dps verse someone dotting up multiple mobs at once is not an apples to apples comparison to say look everything is fine as you can see from this. Personally I don't see the sustained class requiring 18 dots and 3 or more minutes duration on a single target to overcome burst dps as balanced but its not my game to design.
Cant stress how much ooc regen and all these massive regen abilities both endurance and mana changed group play and even the mentality seen regarding raids. Everyone fully expects to just go go go with their best stuff forever and if not their endurance, mana or efficiency tuning are broken, aka burstained. All those worthless spells were there for you to make a choice you burned hard for 30 or 60 seconds and went out mana with some others you used instead for lower peak but allowed you to sustain, now the tuning is so bad the big guys have to be used as their peak carries so far out that the smaller spells server zero purpose because they are to far behind.
People can justify anything these days, gone is a burst class actually bursting for 30 or 60 seconds then puttering out to baseline for long periods. When a zerker won when all his stuff was up but that was once an hours. Its a full out onslaught for 5 minutes by any class now and no one blinks an eye over how far they have come.
Maybe I'm just bad at reading charts but this looks like I had about a 60 second onslaught at the beginning followed by a couple minutes of decent DPS while bard/enc abilities continued to be rotated in. Then you see around 5 minutes in the middle where I did very little DPS while everything was down. After that, ADPS and my burns started to come back, we hit our main auspice rotation, and we had a bunch of adds so I was hitting my beams a lot. It was a decent final 1/3 but I never had another onslaught period again. That's partially due to me using abilities as they come back and not all at once. I'm choosing to spread the DPS out more and to be more consistent. What do you consider bad here?
The only time I see a flat baseline is from about 255 to 561. That flat for burst classes happened at like 30 or 60 seconds prior to the crazy of today thats been going on since about voa with one class or another.
From 0-255 or over 4 minutes you are under some increased burst help, thats not the 30-60 seconds and then a dump off like I described the game had before this burstained trend started roughly around VoA.
I'm not saying it should change at this point as taking stuff away is never fun, nor do I have a solution but even your tone about this were only 60 second part is good to you and everything after is meh aka only decent dps tells the story. At this point every dps and even some hybrid or support classes all seem to feel the same way and want 700k burst and 250k sustained in all settings and can rationalize the whys and if they don't have that they are being short changed or are broken.
With how many classes follow this burstained pattern, the duration its gone on for and nerfs only hurting the games player base its really to the point that they designed themselves into a corner and every dps class needs to be interchangable dps wise in group and raid settings.
So to make necros happy, they shouldn't have dots? Making dots compete with burst damage means they are always burst damage.
Of course, this is a class that can kill 3+ t2 mobs at once solo. So I wouldn't say they are bad.
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