Nec/Sk Dot Revamps

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Nekk, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. mmats Augur

    This is ironic considering you were complaining necros were broken and doing less dps than enchanters just two weeks ago...

  2. Ibudin Augur

    Right - good catch. One Is about we're fine in group, its how you play the game - safe and slow or fast with high risk of death (Zerker can only tank so long). Second is while both Necro and Enchanter had high parses on one raid event (250K dps range over a very long event)- one had to do substantially more work than the other to get the same outcome. Now enchaters disagree on that statement, apparently they have a lot of work to get that type of DPS even though the parse itself showed significant less casts to get similar results. Group mix was slighlty different one ..enchanter had bard and druid, while i was only in a bard group. I am a glass is half full kind of guy.
  3. Vaeeldar Augur

    What is this safe and slow type thing? Are you really in groups were mobs last more than 20 seconds at most? From a pure ramp up stand point that means the best the necro can hope for on huge crits is what a wizzy does in a single DD. It just doesn't work in the group game period..

    Just simple math when a wizzy or mage can hit for 400k+ on a single nuke. We can't keep up with that as a necro - not in sub-20 second fights.
    mmats likes this.
  4. Brohg Augur

    If a wizard isn't good in fights measured by a single DD, I can't imagine what you envision for EverQuest. This is something you seriously have to explain if that's your bar for contributing.
  5. Ibudin Augur

    Wizards sit LFG more than necros - they cant do anything in current content with out a group. Are you really pulling mutiple mobs and kill each with in 20 seconds? What zone are you playing in, FM? You'd run out of mobs to kill pretty quick. Are you really walking into VP and killing mobs there in 20 seconds consistantly? If the group is able to pull and kill mobs in 20 seconds, then why not pop out your aura? And drop fast dots from the bottom on of the extended target? Spam skelly pets, - your not a zerker or wizard but you can be a fine addition to the team. Find different people to play with if your really being passed over for a HDPS <insert any other class here>. Yes, I've gone into anniversay tent mission with SK pulling, and 3 zerkers and beast lord, healer and wiped it before you can blink an eye. I've also done it with chanter, necro, druid, shaman, merc healers - and finished 10 minutes later than the precvious - would that warrant not being invited to a group or revamp a class?

    Safe versus slow - I can pull 3 mobs with necro pet tanking, 2 merc healers and safely live through it, with out breaking sweat. Fast - pull 3 mobs with shaman pet tank, pop some heals, hope the pet keeps agro and burn mobs down with good but at times, I die more than with shaman necro. Thats the rationale of the statement - its your play style. I box a shaman, so my outlook on the game is different.
  6. Siddar Augur

    I find your statement here funny. There is no known way to accurately parse necro group dps. You would have to take the damage you could parse then add in a damage value for the unparsible damage.
  7. Brohg Augur


    fransisco likes this.
  8. mmats Augur

    Yea, sphere does 66k dps....with 3-4 unmezzed mobs in camp. Think its a fair comparison?
  9. Vaeeldar Augur

    This crap about the multiple mobs in camp is insane. You have people arguing two ends of spectrum either one pull multiple mobs which in the group game won't happen regular (and I'm sitting with full chase loot on my sk) or people are talking about partial groups like Ibudin. Talking about how wizzy's sit afk unless in a full group.

    The entire conversation for 3 pages now has revolved around a 6 person group. In that setup a necro is nothing more than filler mobs just don't last long enough to be able to output any damage UNLESS you have a raid tank which flat out defeats the purpose.

    I mean you may as well all argue that the necro should pull solo mobs while the group fights and let him root rot. These examples are such far fetched work around's that it just shows how obvious necros struggle to compete in the true group game.

    For those arguing partial groups - no doubt necro is probably one of the best chars to have but that's because mobs are last 30 seconds or mob (it's why they burn named so well).

    Taken completely out of context. The point was simply that necro would struggle to put out 400k in 20 seconds. A wizzy meanwhile can fire off a good 5-6 nukes. From a pure math perspective if mobs die under 20 seconds a necro isn't contributing. Arguing that is pointless.
  10. Brohg Augur

    It's not out of context. That fight format is the exact hotspot, the prime territory, the sweet center of wizard's highest performance. If you're expecting to perform like a completely different dps class in the specialized duration of their greatest strength, then what do you envision they should be doing on other durations, oh like maybe on 5 minute raid battles?
    fransisco likes this.
  11. Vaeeldar Augur

    But that illustrates my point. I was talking about one single nuke in a typical group fight. Let alone the subsequent 5 a wizzy will case. Nobody expects the necro to compete in that territory but they should be a viable alternative as a dps class. Short of a dot revamp - necros are a pity group spot rather than any value, at least in the pace the group game moves at now.
  12. Brohg Augur

    Yeah I'm blowing off the actual number you used, because it's sheer nonsense. Necromancers can contribute far more than 20k dps an anything north of *3* seconds let alone 20. Equally competent necros will not match wizards' output on that duration, but your scale is way off.

    This is self contradictory, and that's what I want you to explain. *You* appear to want necro to compete in that territory, and it needs justification.
  13. menown Augur

    In today's game, every DPS class is burstained. I would take out maybe Beastlords because of severe mana issues. Wizards in our guild are doing 600K DPS at the 5 min mark. That is more than my necros top raid parse in RoS (you know ... where necros are suppose to shine.) Our Mages are even higher than our wizards. But you know, short fights are where DD classes are supposed to shine, we cannot have necros encroaching on that territory.

    All casters are OP in this expansion. They are way ahead of melee in most raid fights. But lets talk about grouping. I don't even have to be in a full group, just add in 1 good wizard, or 1 good mage, or 1 good berserker into the group with 1 tank and a healer merc. The necros damage instantly drops by 50k DPS. You add others to group and the necro then becomes unenjoyable to play. Necros suffer because they are the only true sustained class left in the game.

    My proposition to change swift DoTs as seen at the top of page 5 does not make necros OP at all. They would put out the same amount of damage with each spell cast, but it would just take less time for that damage to be applied. You would still have that DoT feel for the class.

    But in the end, none of this matters because this thread has been derailed by far too many posts.
    sauron3030 and Lazipuppy like this.
  14. Vaeeldar Augur

    It's unlikely to come anyway. Frankly they tried the dot revamp with other classes and that got out of control on a handful of dots. Can you imagine the issues they would have in revamping necros?

    Swift dots are absolutely where the focus needs to be but they need to be made relevant again - kind of like they were in HOT.

    The other solution could be to unlike skeleton summons but that has different issues as well.
  15. ~Mills~ Augur

    Something will come its just a matter of what and when, it could be another 2 years.

    However the main issue is if it comes from a knowledgeable place ie they actually reach out and take the feedback from senior experienced class players that has been passed out over the past few years. This doesn't include about 90% of those in this thread. In fact the only two people the dev(s) should talk with on the matter are Menown and Forcallen, who can reach out to any others that might still be around as needed.

    But you can't have enchanters with 47k base dots and druids still capable of what they are and just say well we are done here for shadow knights and necromancers. But you also can't just carry along the stupid and give them raid spammable 25k base dots continuing the cycle of we don't understand why this isnt working like we planned.
  16. fransisco Augur

    Yes, knowledgeable please.
    Like enchanters who don't have a worn dot focus on their gear? Who have half? the passive AA to increase dot damage. Who have ZERO burn abilities to focus dots (technically chromatic haze, but thats 2 spells or dot ticks per 10 min. And not 12 seconds of dots, but the first 2 that tick).
    You throw out these numbers and give zero context. Enchanters cannot do the same thing with dots that necros can.
    Is it just pride that makes you want to have the highest base dot damage? What do necros and druids even have to do with a necromancers supposed issue in a group?

    Show us numbers that necros are legitimately in trouble in the group game. Mages can easily parse their nukes, procs, swarm pets ect. No reason a necro cannot. And its been proven that your "not OP" most powerful aura in game is parsable. So please, prove it or stop it.
  17. fransisco Augur

    Some context please. Was this a single fight? How many fights? Was there any undead? What spells were you using? Tribute?
    These are just random numbers without explanation.
  18. ~Mills~ Augur

    Going to post once since debating with you is like arguing with the original BB or his predecessor brohgblade, it goes no where. You have enough know how and experience to sound knowledgeable but in reality you know just enough to be very dangerous.

    Case in point.
    • Enchanters get the same worn focus for dots that everyone else gets, dot extension, mana preservation, haste and worn damage focus effects. As do other revamped dot classes. So you're wrong. The only worn benefit necros have over others is our epic crit effect.
    • No one is hung up on just the base damage number, well at least the people who understand the game. People are hung up from the results that occur after all the factors that come into play on that base damage occur. So while necros have higher crit rate, same passive crit mod and have way more burn tools to enhance dots. It still works out that that one dot casted under non burn settings takes 3 or 4 or even 5 necro dots casted to catch up. Add in multiple mobs and you see the issue in some settings. Never mind the fact that if Mind Tempest runs what 40 seconds or whatever on a mob it has essentially no mana cost for its use. The dot specialist should not have to use a long refresh burn tool or take 5 to 10 casts before catching up to a what others can do in 1-3 dot casts before then moving on to other stuff in the meantime. So you're wrong.
    • Enchanters, druids and other revamped classes relate to necros in that the method used should be pretty uniform for all, with adjustments made for all the factors that come into play obviously. And if a druid or enchanter can provide the same, just under or higher dps than a necro in any setting while then also healing or doing their other primary duties after laying on a few dots its a joke. Right now a few dots are so grossly over powered in base damage that they negate all the other factors that come into play with dots for necros. Making it so 1 or 3 casts from their dots exceed what a necro can do unless under some serious burn tools are used or until they have casted 8-10 dots to catch up and eventually overcome. Thats horrible design for the true dps class and dot specialist to have to take 5+ casts or use burn tools to catch up to what a single dot cast from a support/hybrid dps/healer class can do before they then move on to doing other stuff.
    Necros don't need the biggest base damage dots because as your limited knowledge tells us they have more impacting that damage. However the base damage of others can't be so massively high that it dwarfs all those specialty dot factors unless major burn tools are used. So the end result is what matters. If they give necros a spammable raid dot of 30K base to "catch up" to what some others have then all they do is continue the stupid which will require more work down the line. Or they can listen to the feedback provided to them from a few in past few years. Where enchanters would have say a 20K base dot and two other 8-15k dots and necros would have like one or two 15k base dots. Where druids couldn't do 500k burst or 200k sustained while also healing, with major mana support and instead provide a much more modest dps return.
    Brohg and mmats like this.
  19. Nekk Augur

    I will give you two instances of spells used unless people request more, as both posts are long and I don't want to spam the forums. These can be found in the post below this one.

    The first was with the named included, where I shined on dps of course. I like to save my tribute for raids and nameds only, so no, I wasn't using tribute except for the named. Yes it was mostly undead mobs. I also know that paladin's have a boost vs undead mobs. But, for comparison I will also link the live mobs dps parse as well. To be fair I will include all my pets in every fight as well.

    As a side note this was a low dps boxed group. Next time I get into a non-boxed group I will make sure to post the parse.

    (Everything Combined) /GU Combined: Embalming Goo in 2966s, 548109k @184797dps --- Nekkroh + pets 273226k @92493dps (49.85%) --- Soulzfighter 164421k @55473dps (30%) --- Belluen 89660k @32415dps (16.36%) --- Maellaenya 20792k @7622dps (3.79%) --- Kinthaf 11k @8dps (0%)

    (Everything Combined without the named) /GU Combined: A sepulcher skeleton in 2842s, 502985k @176983dps --- Nekkroh + pets 237877k @84055dps (47.3%) --- Soulzfighter 159845k @56244dps (31.78%) --- Belluen 89660k @32415dps (17.83%) --- Maellaenya 15594k @5995dps (3.1%) --- Kinthaf 11k @8dps (0%)

    (Undead Combined) /GU Combined: A sepulcher skeleton in 2362s, 392883k @166335dps --- Nekkroh + pets 178141k @75805dps (45.34%) --- Soulzfighter 136120k @57629dps (34.65%) --- Belluen 68772k @30097dps (17.51%) --- Maellaenya 9839k @9407dps (2.5%) --- Kinthaf 11k @112dps (0%)

    (Live combined) /GU Combined: Pulsating bile in 717s, 101949k @142189dps --- Nekkroh + pets 53814k @79606dps (52.78%) --- Soulzfighter 21653k @30284dps (21.24%) --- Belluen 20728k @30754dps (20.33%) --- Maellaenya 5755k @9770dps (5.64%) --- Kinthaf 0k @0dps (0%)

    (Live Combined minus golems) /GU Pulsating Bile Combined in 493s, 56874k @115364dps --- Nekkroh + pets 32099k @71015dps (56.44%) --- Soulzfighter 11122k @22744dps (19.55%) --- Belluen 11087k @26026dps (19.49%) --- Maellaenya 2567k @11257dps (4.51%) --- Kinthaf 0k @0dps (0%)

    Note I, a nec, am the main dps class in this group. The other classes were a bard buellen who was boxing an enchanter maellaenya that was focusing on mezzes, not dps as you can clearly see. My pets were putting out about 30-40k combined. I did not use sphere because we didn't have a real tank.

    Since you already saw a parse without pets and I don't want this post to be twice as long, I am just going to leave out the other parses without pets for now. Even with my pets I am barely beating the paladin as the main dps class in the group.
    mmats likes this.
  20. Nekk Augur

    Note look at the above post for parses since this post is already long as well.

    First spell set is Everything Combined with the named.
    Combined: Embalming Goo on 4/28/2018

    Nekkroh - 586
    --- Adalora's Swift Lifedraw Rk. II - 55
    --- Azeron's Flashblaze Rk. II - 55
    --- Call Skeleton Army Rk. II - 90
    --- Circle of Power IV - 1
    --- Companion Relocation - 13
    --- Companion's Aegis II - 1
    --- Consume Essence Rk. III - 6
    --- Consuming Magic - 1
    --- Curse of Muram - 1
    --- Death Bloom IV - 6
    --- Deathly Resolve III - 1
    --- Dichotomic Paroxysm - 12
    --- Dying Grasp IV - 1
    --- Embalmer's Carapace II - 1
    --- Encroaching Darkness Ena - 3
    --- Frenzy of the Dead X - 1
    --- Hand of Death V - 1
    --- Hoshkar's Swift Sickness Rk. II - 55
    --- Ignite Memories Rk. III - 36
    --- Inevitable End Rk. III - 14
    --- Life Burn VI - 1
    --- Polybiad Venom Rk. II - 32
    --- Pyre of Jorobb Rk. II - 45
    --- Pyre of Marnek Rk. II - 20
    --- Pyre of the Shadewarden Rk. III - 52
    --- Refute for Blood Rk. II - 43
    --- Scent of Terris IX - 37
    --- Silent Casting VI - 1
    --- Third Spire of Necromancy IV - 1

    Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

    Second spellset is Eveything Combined without the named.
    Combined: A sepulcher skeleton on 4/28/2018

    Nekkroh - 543
    --- Adalora's Swift Lifedraw Rk. II - 51
    --- Azeron's Flashblaze Rk. II - 51
    --- Call Skeleton Army Rk. II - 86
    --- Companion Relocation - 12
    --- Companion's Aegis II - 1
    --- Consume Essence Rk. III - 6
    --- Death Bloom IV - 5
    --- Dichotomic Paroxysm - 10
    --- Encroaching Darkness Ena - 3
    --- Hoshkar's Swift Sickness Rk. II - 51
    --- Ignite Memories Rk. III - 34
    --- Inevitable End Rk. III - 13
    --- Polybiad Venom Rk. II - 31
    --- Pyre of Jorobb Rk. II - 43
    --- Pyre of Marnek Rk. II - 19
    --- Pyre of the Shadewarden Rk. III - 50
    --- Refute for Blood Rk. II - 41
    --- Scent of Terris IX - 36

    Produced by GamParse v1.0.3
    mmats likes this.