Nature's Destruction Bug

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Drewm, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. Drewm New Member

    So the Druid Scaleborn BP clicky seems to be working improperly. "Increases the damage of direct damage spells by 35000 if they are between level 95 and 110 and cost at least 10 mana." When casting a DoT with no nuke component and nothing else the counters of this effect get eaten up with each tick of the DoT. I do not see it adding damage to each tick, so it seems this is not functioning as intended, or I am overlooking something. Worth noting and investigating.
  2. Tatanka Augur

    It says "direct damage" spells. DoTs, by definition, are not direct damage. Wouldn't this be expected behavior?

    If the DoT had a nuke component (like many shaman DoTs), then I would expect to see the bonus on the DD portion.
  3. Oakenblade Former ForumQuest Champion

    Did you not read the whole post?

    That's the issue.

    I just confirmed this issue. Wearing the Scaleborn Lifewalker Tunic the counters were eaten up with both Sunflame and Horde of Polybiads
  4. Goodn Augur

    Posted a note in the Live Update thread. Hopefully someone will notice.

    (and yeah, confirmed that a dot can set Nature's Will and will tick down counters once set to damage)
  5. Oakenblade Former ForumQuest Champion

  6. S33k3r Augur

    NBW also uses 1 charge for the nuke portion and 1 per tick.

    Also removed Fire FE and without Nature's Will I was seeing :-
    Sunflame - 15566 - 70188 (crit)
    NBW - 34749 - 159432 (crit)

    With Nature's Will I was seeing :-
    Sunflame - 21399 - 76021 (crit)
    NBW - 43499 - 168182 (crit)

    It looks like DoTs are using up charges and only gaining a partial benefit (something like 35k / original duration of DoT)

    Does the Limit Type: Detrimental mean that Nukes and DoTs are valid to get the extra damage ?
  7. Goodn Augur

    Well if the dot is getting 35k (for I assume the raid bp conflag one is only 30k) divided by ticks, then the bp is actually working right for dots...

    Except the whole counter thing. Much rather have it not fire off dots, then have the extra damage eaten up at a much subpar rate by dots. Sigh...druids can't have anything nice, can they?
  8. S33k3r Augur

    It seems to work the same as Threads of Potential and chews through charges :(
  9. Playful Journeyman

    It appears to be the same thing as when ITC would get eaten by mage's RS pets. Just something they have to go in and fix manually.
  10. Sancus Augur

    It's not very complicated. This is the current spell:

    [45762] Nature's Destruction
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: No
    Casting: 0s
    Duration: 3m (30 ticks), Dispelable: Yes
    Max Hits: 19 Matching Spells
    1: Increase Spell Damage by 35000 (After Crit)
    2: Limit Effect: Current HP
    3: Limit Min Mana Cost: 10
    4: Limit Min Level: 95
    5: Limit Max Level: 110 (lose 10% per level)
    6: Limit Type: Detrimental
    7: Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 9 is 'Delayed Heal Marker' and < 2

    This is what the spell should be:

    [45762] Nature's Destruction
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: No
    Casting: 0s
    Duration: 3m (30 ticks), Dispelable: Yes
    Max Hits: 19 Matching Spells
    1: Increase Spell Damage by 35000 (After Crit)
    2: Limit Effect: Current HP
    3: Limit Min Mana Cost: 10
    4: Limit Min Level: 95
    5: Limit Max Level: 110 (lose 10% per level)
    6: Limit Type: Detrimental
    7: Limit Max Duration: 0s
    8: Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 9 is 'Delayed Heal Marker' and < 2

    SPA 286 is added as Value / (Base_Dur + 1), where Base_Dur is measured as the number of DoT ticks before extension. It uses one counter per tick, though, so you're effectively getting a smaller benefit.
    Drogba, Axxius, menown and 1 other person like this.
  11. menown Augur

    The effect is indeed working on your DoTs. Just make sure your DoTs last their full base duration now, until a fix is put in.
  12. Ngreth Thergn Developer

    I'll consider this. Thanks for the feedback. I'm a bit swamped currently, so it may stand for a bit, but when I'm working on BP's for the next expansion, and if a change is made, I'll backfill it.
    IblisTheMage, Fanra and Sancus like this.
  13. Kuvani Journeyman

    Although I noticed this a long time ago, I never really thought it was very "game-changing" and therefore never posted about it. On the post for BPs last year, I said that our BP click wasn't very exciting although it's the best we've had. I couldn't come up with another suggestion and was far more concerned with the focus.

    At this point, it makes no real difference to me if our click is fixed or not. It makes very minimal changes to my DPS when I decide to go the "route of destruction," which is more or less what I use it for since SPA 392 is even more useless to me. I would much rather receive a new, useful click.

    After much thought and research derived from other classes' BP clicks - along with input from other players, I've come up with a new suggestion for a click that I will probably again re-post on a BP thread later this year.

    The click would be a "debuff" to your target that triggers a beneficial recourse:

    Burning Consumption (call it what you will)
    Target: Single
    Range: 200'
    Resist: Fire -200, Max Resist Chance: 95%
    Reflectable: Yes
    Focusable: No
    Casting: 0s
    Duration: 5m (50 ticks), Dispelable: Yes
    Max Hits: 10 Matching Spells
    Recourse: Burning Sustenance
    1: Increase Spell Damage Taken by 35000 (SPA 297)
    2: Limit Type: Detrimental
    3: Limit Resist: Fire
    4. Limit Max Duration: 0s
    5: Limit Min Mana Cost: 100
    6: Limit Min Level: 100
    7: Limit Effect: Current HP
    8: Limit Type: Exclude Combat Skills
    9: Increase Spell Damage Taken by 35000 (SPA 297)
    10: Limit Type: Detrimental
    11: Limit Resist: Fire
    12: Limit Effect: Current HP Non Repeating
    13: Limit Min Mana Cost: 100
    14: Limit Min Level: 100

    This spell would increase the damage of the next 10 fire-based spells to the target by 35000. This will trigger Burning Sustenance which heals your group for 15000 damage.

    Burning Sustenance (again call this what you will)
    Target: Caster Group
    Range: 150', AE Range: 100'
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: No
    Casting: 0s
    1: Increase Current HP by 15000
    Heals your group for up to 15000 damage.

    For the most part, I did like the idea behind the click on our current BP, but I think it's a little outdated. Currently our BP uses SPAs 286 and 392, which really aren't very useful at this point in the game. In fact, many of our abilities use these SPAs. For example Second Spire uses SPA 392, and it isn't very useful because it doesn't scale well.

    Again, last year I didn't make any suggestions to change the click on our BP for multiple reasons (even if part of me wanted to), but I now have thought of a suggestion that is actually useful and makes sense for the Druid class. This spell supports our group (or raid) with the debuff component and aids us in an area that we need to see significant improvement and fall very far behind in (healing).
    gotwar, Fllint, Fooba and 2 others like this.
  14. Liljit Augur

    I'm going to have to disagree with this post Kuvani, for several reasons. First, another debuff, really? Adding to the already constantly buff locked raid target? Second, you were one of the championing druids behind getting our focus changed to what it is now, costing about 18s of group raid dps to increase your personal dps?
    Third, druids are not far behind in healing. What I see as an issue with druid healing is the slow cast time, but the raw power in a druid heal, if used correctly, I can easily roll twin heals for 400k each.
    Second spire? If you're going destruction/nuking path, why not 1st? And the BP adds 19 counter 35k dd dmg.

    Lastly, and this may just be the way I'm seeing it, but from the description it looks like anyone's fire based dmg would proc the added dmg and recourse?
  15. Kuvani Journeyman

    You can disagree and be rude all you want. Quite frankly, I disagree with every point you made as well, and based off your comments, I don't think you understood the spell data I've provided, or most of what I said for that matter.

    I spend a lot of time parsing and maximizing my Druid's potential, and I like to see other players do the same. I like collaborating with other players and classes, and I even play most other classes or at least learn how to because it only helps me in understanding how to play my Druid better. I want to be an advocate for the Druid class in a fair and balanced way. I don't understand why you insist on making that so difficult for me.

    First - yes another debuff. If my suggested changes regarding debuffs are implemented from the current wishes thread, then we'd be getting consolidations anyhow. Besides, the click I've suggested won't last very long on a target in a full raid and will likely only be used once, maybe twice, an event. For the benefit it provides to the entire raid, it would be worth a debuff slot for a very short period of time.

    Second - yes I was one of the "championing druids" behind getting our focus changed. That stance will not change. The 18s of lost group DPS is really not that big of a deal for many players - especially outside of raids depending on your group makeup. You are aware some people do not raid? Besides, it only even affects a few classes, and I really don't think most players even notice that lost DPS. Also, you do not cast remotes for their DPS, so that is absolutely not why I wanted the focus changed.

    It's worth mentioning, once again, because apparently you cannot read - you can still use our old focus and no one loses any DPS (for the few casters that actually care). I understand that some casters actually care about this 18s, and that is fine. I raid consistently in a group that also works very hard to maximize their potentials, and I care very much about being a support class to them. I did not lose my group 18s of DPS, let alone for my own personal DPS gain, so again you are wrong. To this day casters in our groups can (and do in mine) have their beloved 18s, and Druids get a focus that actually benefits their class. It's a win-win for everyone, but I've been saying that for almost a year now. I'm honestly tired of commenting on this topic.

    Third, are you kidding me? Compared to what? Your paladin? Yes, Druids are behind in healing. I'm not even going to get into that one because it's laughable to any Druid, Shaman, or Cleric that actually knows how to heal and/or has played all of the priest classes and understands their own abilities. When other classes can agree that you need increases in a game where people are always calling for nerfs, you know there is an issue.

    Yes, I agree that our cast time is slow, but that is not the only thing that puts us behind in healing. I don't understand why our twinheal is being used as a justification for a counterargument. Who cares if you can roll twin heals for 400k each? The other priests get the same ability to twincast their heals. On top of that, most players cannot even reach 400k hitpoints at this point in the game, and with someone so concerned about caster groups you should know they're definitely not reaching close to that. The healing amount from our group heal isn't the issue, and it isn't what determines the differences in healing capability between priests. The other priests can spam faster heals than we can and have far greater utility for both single target and group healing. I am baffled you believe otherwise.

    Fourth - once again I am under the impression that you cannot read. I was stating that SPAs 286 and 392 were essentially useless because they do not scale well in current content. I then went on to give an example of another ability that uses one of those SPAs - our Second Spire. I was saying that it was useless to emphasize my point. I thought I was pretty clear about that.

    I also understand what our BP actually does and is supposed to do in regards to our DPS. I also understand that for a Druid that actually knows how to properly DPS, our BP click makes a very small difference in our total DPS. This would be the case even if our click is fixed. I know perfectly well how to DPS; thank you though.

    Finally, you would be incorrect again. As far as the debuff component goes, it would be any player's fire damage - at least under the conditions I've posted. That is why it is a debuff and not a personal buff. I wasn't aiming for a huge personal increase in DPS. I was aiming to help out our raid our group. As far as the heal goes, it would be triggered only off the initial cast.
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  16. Liljit Augur

    1. I was anything but rude, Kuvani, just because someone disagree's doesn't mean they are being rude. If you want an example of rude, re-read your response post.

    2. You mention a debuff of a few seconds with raid dps rolling, consolidating our debuffs alone will not fix debuffs bouncing on raid targets. Alliances often bounce, at least they are back every 1 min. When our BP starts bouncing, with a 10 min recast, and you've cost us another tool, I'm sure all the druids will love you then.
    3. I also don't want yet another Kuvani pushed change that requires that I swap BPs, since that seems to be your answer. Maybe you should ask for BP bandolier slot since this seems to be your preferred method of class improvement.
    4. Because it's a tool in our arsenal. Because casters really don't take dmg often on raids, and those twin heals were direct heals, twin group heals for around 150K each. I am agreeing with you, druids need a boost, but the boost doesn't need to be in healing power. A minor improvement in healing utility and a reduction in cast times/recast times would be sufficient. A splash or real spell ability to do what every other priest can do would be a nice start.
    5. Lastly...that's what I said.

    Sidenote Kuv- I don't disagree with everything you post, you have some good ideas and I have agreed with some of them, see: Druid Wishes. But when you want to drastically change our BP....again, I'm not going to sit by without voicing a differing opinion to the class. See collaboration, being surrounding by people who don't always agree with what you say, those are good things.
    Playful likes this.
  17. gotwar Gotcharms

    There are a lot of things you could say about that proposed BP click. It not being good isn't one of them.

    It's actually a smart suggestion - it fits as a strong pseudo-ADPS click that benefits both the Druid casting it as well as the heavy-hitting casters in the raid, has precedence in other class BPs, falls in line with the current breastplate click, and utilizes a far more useful SPA than the current Druid BP. It's essentially the current Druid click, but better.

    The current Druid BP click is pretty lackluster. I have no idea why anyone wouldn't want it changed.
    Sancus and Kuvani like this.
  18. Liljit Augur

    For 1 it would be a debuff as proposed.

    Change it to a group counter - beneficial so it cannot bounce and I would have less issue with it.

    Does no one else have issue with debuff slots? I'm gonna go with yes, people have issues with debuff slots as it has been a hot topic for many months in regards to both revamping the necro dots and combining other classes abilities.

    Druids are already throwing ~10 debuffs slots with debuffs and dots, season's wrath AA.

    Add every alliance aside from priests, all the other dotting classes and that leaves very little for necros, we generally run 2 necros because more than that and they'd get bounces constantly.

    What it should be, since the design of druid has been a path choice...destruction vs healing as is the design behind the BP click, is a click ability of Nature's Fury or Nature's Blessing.

    If you're looking to make druids have another adps function, either allow black wolf to work on DoTs or let there be a group version of Destructive Vortex.
  19. gotwar Gotcharms

    There is no group beneficial SPA 297 equivalent. I believe the closest approximation would be SPA 303, which is a non-stacking SPA (someone correct me if wrong) that conflicts with a wide range of abilities currently in use.

    That specific SPA (297) is desirable due to the way it functions. It's one of the stronger foci increases currently in use and has the added benefit of being usable by others outside your group. With the low counter limit (10) it will also be used up very quickly, freeing up the debuff slot almost immediately after its been applied.

    If you're really worried about it bouncing, just hit the NPC with a Skull of Null click before casting it, or better yet time its use before the debuff slots on the NPC fill up. "This takes up a debuff slot" isn't a valid reason to turn away a useful ability carefully selected for its desirable effects. Exercising a modicum of control over powerful abilities is part of the game.

    That's assuming Ngreth is even considering looking at BP clicks this expansion. If he was, and I was a Druid, I'd be all-in on a click like this. It's useful, fits the Druid class thematically, and is in line with the current BP click, making it a likely candidate to be accepted as a new click effect.

    Asking for a scaling effect (like a Nature's Fury equivalent) is very unlikely, as Ngreth has stated multiple times he's not fond of % scaling click effects that lack finer control.
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  20. Sancus Augur

    For posterity's sake:
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