Motivation To Play Clerics

Discussion in 'Priests' started by Karliv, Feb 15, 2021.

  1. niente Developer

    I'm going to ask some generic questions that will maybe help.

    What will help solve this problem?

    Which aspects of playing a cleric are not good? (i.e. solo/molo/group/raid, personal DPS, raid role, group role, buffing, utility, ADPS)

    For the problem area, what would make it better (keeping your suggestion within what you believe is the class identity/role)?
    Jordis, Tarvas, Nniki and 1 other person like this.
  2. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    Just go play a modern cleric. It’ll be much better for your research.
    Fenthen likes this.
  3. Metanis Bad Company

    1. More DPS.
    2. More DPS.
    3. More DPS.
    4. Even More DPS!

    Clerics are great at their raid role and buffing. Group? Meh. Solo/Molo? LOL! Cry me a river!

    Combine the wizard class with the cleric class. Make every nuke a heal. Make every heal a nuke. Add situational AA abilities to temporarily enhance either DPS or healing. Make 2 crappy classes into a single crappy class!

    Ok, I was joking there, but clerics are unidimensional just like a wizard. There's not much you can do to change that.

    I personally would love to see my ability to mitigate damage vastly improved so that I can stand there toe-to-toe with a mob and absorb a beating while my meager DPS gradually wears it down. And maybe add some expensive potions that can do necro-level damage over time. Years ago, we had some "Holy Water" type things that were woefully under-powered, but the concept was nice. It would be OK to have to do some trade skills to create really powerful DPS abilities.
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  4. niente Developer

    I have played a cleric since 2001. :)
  5. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    Then kick off a discussion from your perspective and what is possible within the design philosophy of the class.
    Fenthen likes this.
  6. Tornat Augur

    I've been playing one as my main on Thornblade sense it came out. Raiding the class is fun , grouping and soloing is where it kinda lacks . atm I sit on a mount and cast 1 or 2 spells in a group . I feel like if we got a bump in our melee ability were it more encourage to not just be sitting on a mount half the time would go along way , I think double attack would be nice , I always like EQ2 Inquisitor a ton . It would be cool to get some sort of AA melee thing where a mob is under like 9% health and we just flat out kill it or what ever % doesn't work on rares/raid mobs ect.

    I know were the top healers in the game but would be cool if we had the toolkit to contribute more in a group if you got a full group we contributed 5-7% damage done instead of like 0.5%.

    This is all info just on TLP I have no ideal what it is on live , I like to play this toon to live but grinding/soloing exp is mad boring right now.
    minimind likes this.
  7. Iribabh Augur

    This is not helpful to anyone. Maybe Niente does play a cleric, and maybe the tank(s) that Niente play with trust in their cleric to keep them up and push the limit.

    EDIT: I took too long typing this, and Niente confirmed cleric for 21 years.

    At the risk of pointing the nerfbat at my main class:
    The other day I was pet tanking NINE mobs in Umbral Plains at once with ONE good cleric keeping the pet alive. Yes - I did a few spot patches myself, yes a druid was in the group though it was not casting any direct heals I assure you, I was the one playing it. It was a DoT / DD machine. Yes I understand that remote nukes, composite, ro, and my weapon procs passive heal my target target or group.

    We did this without slow or any form of CC. There is not another healer in the game who could keep that pet alive than a cleric. The group wasn't even full. It was 4 toons and I think 2 rogue mercs if I even had mercs out to begin with.

    Could it have been split and safely pulled? Sure. That's what I do when I don't have a cleric with me. I split and do a couple at a time. I don't say this for clout but to point out clerics have a role and it's in a group that is absolutely pushing the limits.

    I've also run into several clerics who "you can't run out of mana" when you pull. They're right. They'd have to push buttons for that to happen. I never re-invite these clerics. My mercs are better.

    I suspect anyone who thinks cleric mercs are better have encountered these types of clerics and it left a bad taste in their mouth...or they are these types of clerics and that's why they don't get groups. They want to play like it's 20yr ago and all you do is cast 1 heal every 2 minutes and you're golden.

    I believe the problem is many people prefer to play it safe than to wipe and have to come back and set up again and potentially have to rebreak the camp or lose it. Shaman have exceptional healing output while also having the potential for strong dps, great adps, and debuffs. Depending on the content a druid can also stand in as the healer and bring the same things mentioned above to the party (though depending on group makeup with a bit less success).

    Clerics on the other hand are raw healing power. They don't have much dps to speak of to add while doing their job, and they don't do anything to weaken the mobs like a druid or shaman can, and they don't add any damage to the group like a druid or shaman can.

    In a group mission such as the new Shei Vinitras mission, clerics don't really contribute the same as one of the other priests can. It's true that all 3 priests can cover the bane mechanic well. All 3 can cover the cure mechanic well. All 3 can keep people alive well too (druid can be a bit of a struggle if they have to do all 3 since their personal heals aren't super great, depends on the tank). This is where things get different.

    A shaman can do these things while also providing adps (epic click, roar, aid, spire), dotting the target, sic'ing the pet on it, and other shaman things that amounts to not a small amount of damage.

    A druid can do these these things while providing adps (wolf, aura, spire, some other less powerful things), dotting the target, including access to the single biggest dd/dot combo in the game hands down (NFW/NSW) doing strong dps.

    A cleric cannot provide anything additional to the group. The healing requirement is pretty low on this mission so the cleric's large assortment of powerful healing toys go to waste. This is the challenge for clerics in modern EQ. If their raw healing power isn't applicable to the situation, then they provide less to the group than another priest might.

    A couple quick fire thought solutions:
    Reducing the cooldown on the Contravention spell line. These work same as a druids remote nuke in that it heals target target with a nuke. Maybe make it a 6sec recast? Increase the base damage on the spells also.

    A revisit to the "stance" type buff that Szilent pointed out earlier. In it's current state it reduces healing by 25%, adds a pitifully small DD proc, and a SELF heal over time. Change it to maybe be a 20% increased melee damage, 20% increased spell damage, 35% reduced healing buff. Add in a moderate proc to it and maybe have it heal the target's target instead of HOT the cleric.
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  8. Cicelee Augur

    So now we are comparing cleric and rogue DPS?

    Why even bother with classes. Just have one class that can do everything. That way everyone is equal.
  9. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    Its really difficult to pick through feedback, then assign priority and validity to replies with no experience behind it. Any of the changes are going to have to go through other staff. So, they’ll need to be able to construct a design decision based off the team’s class philosophy.

    Fortunately, they got 21 years which should inspire confidence among the clerics here.
  10. minimind The Village Idiot

    I do not play a cleric. But I have a long-time scheduled group with a cleric in it and we've often talked about what would make the cleric more enjoyable to play.

    Which aspects of playing a cleric are not good?
    • I am told that a cleric's role is so pivotal when acting as a group's sole healer, that the cleric can only really focus on casting heals. That requires targeting the player in need of healing and thus takes away from the opportunity to target the enemy for melee and spell damage. Now this cleric buddy of mine doesn't think he should be doing top DPS or even consistent/reliable DPS (like shaman/druid dots), but something is better than nothing.
    For the problem area, what would make it better?
    • Allow heals to affect target-of-target if the cleric's target is hostile.
    • Add to a pre-existing self-buff the chance for melee attacks to proc a heal on target's target (tank). The cleric is in plate armor-- force him/her into the melee and use those maces and staves!
    • Add clerics to other class' Alliance melee abilities. (I'd love it if a random cleric could help execute a berserker alliance fulmination.) Again, keep it melee.
    Raccoo likes this.
  11. niente Developer

    Sorry, I shouldn't have responded with my previous comment and it was a bit mean. I get a bit triggered when people think I don't play (personal problem).

    All the ideas I've worked on have gotten better if I talk to players. I see a lot of "I like healing, cleric DPS is bad, raiding is fun, druids and shaman are good" in this thread. I'm looking for ideas because you guys have the best ideas and will come up with things I never thought of.

    It's hard for me to post my own ideas because I have a Red Name and it affects forum discussions differently. I have some ideas, but I don't think they're very good, and I know there are lots of great players here who have better ones.
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  12. sojero One hit wonder

    Boost the vow of valor line. Make their dps go up when they sacrifice healing.

    Maybe also give them a spell like vow line but improves their tanking ability and ability to hold agro, not as well as maybe a real tank, cause of the mask+agro mods they get, but something that they could stand in and tank some too while also being their own healer. They get the ward line that procs the dmg when getting hit, but its not very strong.

    Boost the damage on their tot nukes/heals , the heal part is fine, the nuke part is so weak its not felt. I think that would go a long way to boosting the class.

    Other than healing, clerics suffer the same as many classes in that their spreadsheet upgrades have diminished vs mob hp.

    most classes suffer from this (not actual values just an example):

    3k nuke year 1
    3.3k nuke year 2
    3.7k nuke year 3
    4.1k nuke year 4

    vs other classes
    6k nuke year 1
    6.6k nuke year 2
    7.3k nuke year 3
    8.1k nuke year 4

    as you go out even further, you will get to where to something like this:
    Ethereal Ignition WIZ/120
    1: Decrease Hitpoints by 83558.

    Atoned Intervention StrikeCLR/118
    1: Decrease Hitpoints by 19720. (live)
    2: Decrease Hitpoints by 26620. (undead)
    3: Decrease Hitpoints by 23661. (summoned)

    and sadly wizards are still a bit behind the others to where they should be in the dps chain, but they did get a buff and are doing a little better.

    after a short amount of time with the same spreadsheet math being plugged in the returns diminish to the point that the other classes are way out classing them. The AA just compound the issue because the % is based off the initial so over time the non DPS classes fall even further behind, and cleric is one that has fallen behind the hardest.

    Just my rambling thoughts, as my clr isn't max aa, so maybe that is what I am feeling/seeing
  13. sojero One hit wonder

    I respect how you feel/perceive that because if you post something someone is going to try to hold you to it, even if its a spitball idea that you are trying to flesh out and see if its plausible in some sense.

    Maybe throw some ideas of where you would like to see the class headed, and we can do the spit balling and the trolls can do the fleshing :)
  14. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    Thanks for the follow-up. Just outline the design philosophy, so that the players can be emphasize the feedback on the acceptable areas of a cleric. For example, a lot of people are interested in the battle cleric aspect which isn’t much different then a paladin role.

    There just needs to be defined direction that players can see where you want to take the class.
  15. Szilent Augur

    It's my feeling that, at present, overall cleric power is too concentrated in their plainest mode - the chained direct fast heals. It's good to have that power; it's Core, and Defining for The Heal Class. Those Remedies are pretty much as powerful as they should be; I wish their juxtaposition versus other classes' heals were mirrored in the construction of wizard nukes :p But cleric's ancillary powers just aren't remotely as effective, and no one who pays attention to their play of any class wants to cast intrinsically weak spells.

    Some ideas? I'd start with adjustments, instead of new stuff. Juice up non-Remedies:
    Lowering the re use time on Stun spells, probably via focus AAs, plus boost the proc chance on Recourse of Life. Perhaps create alt-stuns to work on yellow+ /con & immune enemies like was done for paladins with Crushes, ones that nerf a round of melee, maybe, (3 hit counter -50% spa185?) instead of adding a nuke.

    I'd split the weirdly shared timer on the single target protection Ward spell & the group heal proc buff Hand spell.

    Ward should be friendly-or-enemy's-target, and much lower reuse, again probably via chunky focus AA hastening.

    I'd remove the recast timer on Hand entirely, double or triple the heal proc's size, add a spell proc HOTT heal to it, so that it's less dependent on a full melee group to be working at all.

    Heal over time spells should be, like, 0.5s cast not 4. They're already not working immediately, and have a huge structural problem in that modern melee rounds are 4x as fast as when heal over time spells were invented. There's been a complete flip from "HOT will tick between each round" to "HOT will tick after at least two and maybe three rounds". This is compounded by nearly every enemy triple attacking like they weren't "in the day". Taking a chunk of battle time to put HOT on isn't cool.

    Cleric Vow spells can have the heal penalty removed. The dps gained isn't killer enough to warrant a trade off, they should be pure upside. The +agro version of the proc with self-only heal over time is a fine cohesive model, but the non-agro one should be HOTT heals.
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  16. Dramez New Member

    There is already a "Stance" style system for tanks. I've always felt this could be applied to Clerics. When a cleric is not in the "Healing Stance" its dps output is upped and healing is reduced. Doesn't have to solely be casting DPS.
  17. Szilent Augur

    that exists. it's the Vow self buffs.

    Trading off is dumb. Stances are dumb for externalizing what could just be intrinsic.
  18. Pano Augur

    Could help if our adps hits the entire group and not just us. It'd make cleric a bit more desirable in a group setting over a shaman/druid.

    Our single target/group healing is good, ae healing is ok but that's where Shm shine and I don't believe we need to out heal every other healer. Our adps is inexistant and our dps is about as good as a merc, if not worse. There's probably a whole new thread to be made about how most of our spells outside of our direct healing spells are way undertuned. Szilent brings a few good points about Ward, Hand, vow and HoT but there way more.

    His vow example is a good one as we take a 25% healing penalty which is a lot considering what the spell does. Most clerics can heal around 30k HP per seconds in a raid setting, probably a bit lower in a group setting as there is a lot less damage done. We'll say we do half that in a group. If you take a 25% cut on 15k HP/s, you lose a potential of 3750 HP/s to gain a procs that does 9k dmg, raise hatred but not enough to keep aggro off anything and a focusable HoT that does decent healing, but due to it ticking every 6 seconds, becomes not so good for the reason Szilent mentioned above. As for the other Vow, it's basically useless the way it currently is.

    Also, bringing back the Blood spell line would be nice as this one was actually useful unlike the Ground line of spell which keeps getting updated for god knows what reason.
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  19. Bigstomp Augur

    This would be huge - it would at least allow us to use our nukes without having to constantly switch targets.
    We can debate the quality of the nukes separately - this mechanic change would make it far easier to use them reliably.
    minimind likes this.
  20. Szilent Augur

    Lol Divine Avatar for the group would be nutterbutters, and Battle Frenzy