Discussion in 'Priests' started by Karliv, Feb 15, 2021.
The best reason to play a cleric ... god complex. You literally make or break the raid/group.
Ninelder is spot on, on many of his points.
i main a raiding cleric and my motivation for doing so is, and has always been, to master raid events.
i do not box, or do so very rarely and poorly (for a variety of reasons), i don't have max level alts and the group game has been a blight on my soul for quite some time.
Well I like the whole holy warrior archetype but I didnt enjoy Paladin mostly because I found out I don't like tanking (sitting there taking damage). For me, I fell in love with the spells of the cleric and the idea of the options I have to push *my* game forward.
Also it opens me up more for groups as I won't mind sitting there healing and letting the other players frantically kill stuff. As an aside I can even play a meta game of how far I can push the group (i.e. - better heals so they can do harder content, throwing in target-of-target nukes to aid in DPS, etc).
Currently just level 18 rolling with a wizard merc making it happen.
At the end of the day I'm enjoying my play sessions and thats the most important thing for me.
I like to play all classes in Everquest.
Some classes suffer in some situations.
Rogues as an example, aren't really rogues the same way without a group to keep mobs turned to use the core ability of backstab.
Clerics aren't really useful any more than an app V merc for 114 of 115 levels and access to raiding, where mercs are forbidden. For 114 levels, mercenary clerics get Rk. II spells that players have to farm or buy from players who did, often at borderline extortionist prices. At max level, a shammy or pally, or druid can usually heal enough for group content and bring better utility.
Raids however do not happen without clerics, so I raid main a cleric, where it is always welcomed, needed and a right proper challenge.
as a returning player, and as a cleric main on raids, I disagree with THIS statement.
a cleric with a LFG tag will usually wait a VERY long time in group content as any existing groups aren't, by reason of their very existence as an ongoing concerm, must, by definition, already have heals and a tank, or there isn't a group to begin with.
Mercs come with rank II spell sets by default. Actuall paying customers, not so much.
114 levels of spellset inferiority to an app V merc (who can also gain AAs) sucks.
I go weeks between using heal spells over level 113 on my cleric, and I'd categorize most of the casts over level 111 as incidental upgrades to lower level spells. Real clerics are upgrades to 115 mercenaries from at least 106, just in easy mode chain casting. Considerably earlier, even, if they're good at deploying tools normally eschewed as unnecessary and superfluous (the twinhealing nukes, DArb/Balance, all of Channeling / Flurry / Frenzy / Rapid AAs, DI in the group game). Player clerics are far mightier juxtaposed in this fashion with their mercenary counterparts than dps characters.
I'm not just spitballing on that. Recently I had occasion to play with friends on a set of unevenly leveled new characters. We had ToV quests & missions to do and mercenary healers were not good enough. Lower level player healers were.
Rank twos are thoroughly immaterial in the face of mercenaries' slow "a f" spell casting.
Theres nothing in the group game that requires rk2s, especially on heals, look at your heal parses and just take a gander at the overhealing tab or compare heals landed v cast. If a cleric is just pewpew remedying a good portion of heals are wasted landing with a large chunk of overhealing.
And no sensible person is going to turn down a player healer because of rank 1 buffs. Granted there's alot of not sensible people playing this game tho so idk.
I think personally the main issue with clerics is the generally accepted playstyle isn't ultra exhilarating or fun in group content (generally) and the alternative playstyles aren't nearly as rewarding as they should be given the effort.
As a cleric, if I announce LFG in /general - I will usually get 3-5 offers within 2 minutes. But guild groups are better, so I usually take those first. I don't know why you've experienced a hard time finding groups as a cleric, that hasn't been my experience with cleric'ing since 2000.
Do understand, especially in the buff department - it is ... really not great that healer mercs offer rank 2s for free, where players need to spend significant time/coin to acquire them. I don't think the real difference between rk1 and rk2 of most other spells (direct heals etc) is make-or-break in the vast majority of circumstances, buffs do sting though.
In any relatively challenging content, give me a real cleric any day! The intelligence behind their heals (Promise when someone is going to pull, not casting group heals when mobs are coming in, etc etc) is miles beyond working with the very basic NPC AI. In the most brain-dead grinding without challenge, sure, anything with a heal spell is capable of getting the job done.
Even in 2003/2004 people I knew would often prefer a druid to a cleric, and sometimes a shaman as well - especially back when a lot of end-game group content was immune to mezz. There was no reason to take a Cleric because they did low damage, didn't have great debuffing ability, and the healing was unnecessary particularly after the fast heals/percent heals were added to Druids and Shaman.
It was simply unnecessary. A druid could do all of the healing needed, and still do 3x the damage of a cleric. A shaman wasn't as good for heals, but was often good enough for group content. This was in raid guild groups of course, so the players had decent gear/focus effects/AAs/epic 1.5/2.0s, etc.
Once they added things like group Mind Wrack to Necros, Clerics were practically obsolete in our groups as this really cut into their efficiency advantage and it was practically a free cast for Necros in group content. We grouped them out of pity, because we needed them for raids.
They simply didn't have enough utility, and low damage. Being a better healer does not matter if the other healers are still allowing you to plow the content with minimal risk (that can be attributed to healing output).
Even their HP/AC buff wasn't that attractive, because by then even casters had 12K HP, etc. And Druids bought one that was half as decent enough, anyways, so it's not like you were completely missing out on it.
I also thnk Clerics hurt themselves with their politicking in the game. When they were basically necessary for group play, they pulled strikes etc. that basically brought the game to a halt for tons of people (Warriors also had one, but for more understandable purposes - with similar results). SOE realized the design flaw inherent in the content and class design and later added % and Faster Heals to Druids and Shaman. That niched Clerics off heavily.
Back in the day Cleric was THE healer. Druids and Shaman were generally flex roles (Debuffing/Utility/DPS/Off-Heals) even in group content. The holy trinity was a literal thing that referred to specific classes in EQ. But the developers went in and tore this down. That's when SKs and Paladins became great MTs in Group content, and Clerics lost their monopoly on the healer slot. Enchanters were basically destroyed when later content was filled with MOBs immune to Mezz, Stun, or Charm. They would sit in Town while people asked them for KEI, but wouldn't invite them to group.
I don't see a way to rectify this issue. Cleric is already a class that appealed only to a specific niche of players who prefer that role and the obligations/expectations that come with it. Similar to Tanks. It's why Cleric and Warriors used to be the most sought after classes, even when they basically got insta-groups. Many groups would wait an hour or two just for a Cleric or Warrior, because there were not enough to go around.
Started an easy-mode chain casting cleric for this very reason, merc caster could not keep my group-geared paladin alive in content that he was under-geared/under-played for. The result is I've gone from being an expansion or two behind in content to being able to tackle all but the hardest hero's in the first few months. Interestingly, it was around level 106 for the cleric that I dumped the merc except for the hardest content. Having a cleric has made a big difference for me to the point I'm trying to find better ways to maximize my play style over the multi-bind chain casting I do now.
I prefer healing over dps. I've tried both and this is what I prefer. I've raided extensively at the top of the game in era for most expansions. What attracts me most to a guild is xp groups. I don't want to be LFG everyday for 4+ hours because guildmates won't remove a box cleric for a main. This happened a lot when I raided on blue servers, even though I was usually the cleric with the highest RA. So that is my advice to you, make sure all your guildmates understand if the cleric is lfg they kick out their box and invite the real person.
Only 4 hours LFG within your own guild? Sounds like a good deal to me. People just don't want to give up the box toon. I gave up asking my guild. I only got to group with them on raids. So after 10 years as a cleric main I changed to classes that can solo. I've been a necro, a mage and now a bst. Still enjoy the priest more than the others but didn't enjoy the part about never having a group.
Completely and utterly wrong.
1) Our heals aren't instant other than 3 aa heals with long recasts (Lay Hands, Gift of Life, Hand of Piety)
2) All our spell heals can fizzle
3) All our spell heals can be interrupted except 1 (dicho stun's heal component)
4) None of our heals can be cast while running except 1 spell (dicho stun, and has to be in range to do so as it is a group heal), and the three AA instant heals
Go roll a paladin if you think they are so great. Our primary single target heal has a several second global cooldown (at least its not 6 full seconds like it originally was). Our other single target heals are pathetic. We cannot heal anywhere near what a cleric or shaman can. It is a struggle to keep a caster group alive on raids if all the druids bail, as our group heals are now terrible (due entirely to cast time) compared to shaman and clerics, for example, whereas that was where we used to shine.
Druid heals just stink and that's a druid problem, not a paladin one. Clerics don't have any real issue other than the boredom of a being a pure healing class when you don't have a group to heal. And that's a choice you make.
I topped the heal parse during EOK on those extremely long raids that were heal heavy, even above the top cleric sometimes. That isn't happening in the modern game.
Our best healing are now pass through healing that we do on the MT while we're doing our own dps, and it isn't that great by itself anymore. Good thing modern eq needs hardly any healing and we don't even need to help heat the MT these days.
Sincere Light Rk. III
1: Increase Hitpoints by 9286.
Casting Time: 0.5
Remonstrate Heal III
1: Increase Hitpoints by 9984.
Casting Time: Instant
Burst of Wakening Rk. III
1: Increase Hitpoints by 18983.
Casting Time: 0.25
Sincere Cleansing Rk. III
1: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 7960 per tick
Casting Time: 1
Mantle of the Sapphire Cohort Heal III
1: Increase Hitpoints by 38388.
Casting Time: Instant
Splash of Exaltation Rk. III
1: Increase Hitpoints by 3967.
2: Decrease Poison Counter by 29
3: Decrease Poison Counter by 29
4: Decrease Disease Counter by 30
5: Decrease Disease Counter by 30
6: Decrease Curse Counter by 24
7: Decrease Curse Counter by 24
8: Decrease Corruption Counter by 18
9: Decrease Corruption Counter by 18
10: Remove Detrimental (70)
11: Remove Detrimental (70)
Casting Time: 1
Steely Renewal III
1: Increase Hitpoints by 3794.
Casting Time: Instant
Propitiation Rk. III
1: Increase Hitpoints by 22941.
2: Increase Hitpoints by 19117.
3: Increase Hitpoints by 15933.
4: Increase Hitpoints by 12747.
5: Increase Hitpoints by 10196.
Casting Time: 0.25
Unending Affirmation Reflection III
4: Increase Hitpoints by 4721 per tick. Max: 4721 per tick
6: Increase Aggro Modifier by 65%
Casting Time: Instant
Protective Consecration Rk. III
1: Increase Hitpoints by 9261.
3: Add effect: Protective Consecration Guard III
Casting Time: 1
Completely and utterly... easy to look up and copy/paste from Alla.
Do you know what fast cast and instant mean?
Do you realize that fast cast means immune to fizzle? As does instant(obviously.)
If you don't know how to make a 0.5second cast time spell cast while running, perhaps you should try playing a druid for a while.
WTF? Why do I rez more pallys in raid than SK's then?
You're super bad at this. Every "instant" effect you've quoted is a triggered effect, not a spell paladins cast. The very first one, Remonstrate, has a 1.0s cast time. I won't bother going through the rest.
Fast cast does not mean immune to fizzle, nor does instant "(obviously.)"
If you're casting 0.5s cast time spells while on the move, not lemme-just-stop-real-quick-to-cast-then-run-again, but actually on the move? I demand video proof. Substantiate that claim.
I had a decent response to the OP in the works earlier today until the power went out and I lost it all. Attempt #2 will probably be shorter and less good. See, less good, it's not even starting out as well.
But seriously, I played a Druid in `99 and loved healing. Not realizing how much worse the class was at it than a Cleric was a good thing, because it meant I kept doing it. Eventually that caught up with me and I abandoned the class, but went Rogue instead.
I've been itching to play a Cleric for real over the last few years. The first free Heroic Upgrade they gave out, that's what I made, but I only dabbled with it a bit until recently. When you get into situations where it's less 3 players and 3 mercs, and more 4/5/6 real players, the healer merc seems like a waste. So I wanted to be the real Cleric in the group. But also I missed being the healer.
With the help of some friendly Ranger's and headshot, my Cleric is now 102, and I'm getting a good feel for it. A few years ago I read some posts and learned how to set one up properly, with a mash key and which spells to use. That is all working really well, my only issue is the difference in healing now versus healing way back when.
In the very old days, you healed during a fight, then the group meditated, then you repeated. Now with high mana regen and group synergies, you can pull near constantly. So while it's fine to have to stay focused to keep people alive, now you aren't getting much of a chance to flip between focus and relax. The difference of a second or two on incoming could mean a dead tank. Once things are under control it's more smooth, but it just seems so much more active now than before. Especially with Contravention and Mark, where you need to switch targets from defensive to offensive and back. I've dealt with that somewhat with socials, but it's a work in progress.
Now to be fair, I'm boxing the Cleric with an Enchanter, and maybe that's not the wisest choice for an old slow guy like me. Once we get a group of 6 real people I'll take the Enchanter out of group and see how the Cleric does with my full attention. For now I'll often keep an merc healer up on Balanced or Efficient and just work with a net, but then the Cleric feels like a bit of a waste, at least until a named mob pops.
To some degree, the Cleric feels like any other high level EQ toon, mash key, mash key, mash key, mash key, etc. So it's hard to decide whether it's boring or whether all high level characters are boring. I do like the target-of-target mechanics they added to Clerics, so maybe I just need more practice for muscle memory.
In the end, my motivation is to be useful, and to avoid needing a merc to have a viable group. It will be some time yet before I know if I'm making those things happen, and whether or not I'm enjoying it.
We all say dumb things or just mistaken things sometimes. You should quietly accept it, or own it, not double down on it making yourself look evern worse.
Instant is instant. 1 second, 0.5 seconds, and 0.25 seconds are not "instant". Triggered effects from defensive discs, defensive procs, and self only long reuse heals are not at all what was being talked about. You were clearly comparing paladin healing of OTHERS to cleric healing of OTHERS, and then rambled on about stuff that was demonstrably false.
And fast cast is not immune to fizzle, that is just dumb and shows a clear lack of understanding of everquest game mechanics.
Perhaps you should try playing this game for awhile versus whining about it.
Separate names with a comma.