Discussion in 'Melee' started by Boyboi, Jun 20, 2018.

  1. Monkman Augur

    @bigboi scorpions agony poisons are your friend if you want to aggro like a champ
  2. Aerocell New Member

    Is there some serverwide chat for monks where we could through around ideas and parses?
  3. Monkman Augur


    I believe that’s the one
  4. Thunderkiks Augur

    If the monks are only doing 90-110k dps and that is with burns then something is really wrong.

    I was bored the other day and did the Degmar HA when it was on the daily to remax my stored AA and killing all the trash, not burning at all was /G Combined: A crazed digger in 543s, 94097k @173290sdps --- #1 Thunderkiks 94097k@173290sdps (173290dps in 543s) [100%] this was only trash mobs, no burn at all.

    Then for the named mobs in the mission I used some burns, one fight too a bit longer as someone knocked on my door and I had to FD /G Commander Alast Degmar in 29s, 17092k @589370sdps --- #1 Thunderkiks 17092k@589370sdps (589370dps in 29s) [100%]

    This is the whole mission parse but again I only even used any burn stuff on the named mobs and not the first time with commander either.
    /G Combined: A crazed digger in 622s, 141033k @226742sdps --- #1 Thunderkiks 141033k@226742sdps (226742dps in 622s) [100%]

    So maybe go through the forums and find the mash set up forum and see what you might be missing. You're missing DPS somewhere.

    I wasn't even trying here on this mission, was just burning time I had while I was sitting in my truck waiting for my load to be done so I could get on the road.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  5. RangerGuy Augur

    I appreciate the response but ignoring that its old content thats still you tanking as an RoS raid monk with 1350 hstr and 1800 hdex. You're massively over level and attack for that content so I am sure your hitting for higher often on top of tanking. The tanking alone adds 2 primary hits per riposte, 50% of those ripostes get a flying kick, plus thunderfoot procs from that that flying kick 30% of the time, plus any wu or resonant kicks. So tanking alone adds a bunch of dps, its the same for tanks when geared to go 2h.

    Most monks are not full on tanking in RoS for their groups for that benefit. They are there to dps and pull if at all needed.

    I am not maxed geared or AA'd by any means but 2 more ranks of kick mastery, 2 ranks of resonant kicks, Infusion 9, 3 more ranks of resonant strikes, masters synergy 11 (still use torrent to proc) while definitely an increase will not equate to 30k more sustained when playing as a dps class in a group not a tank. Which is about what would put a monk closer to other melee with a bit less for the survival tools. And from my point of view its the lack of disc time in a sustained setting like that.

    If you put a rogue or zerker in those situations you parsed they would be doing a lot more than that with decap and assassinate on top of their already ahead lead.
    Raptorjesus5 and Thunderkiks like this.
  6. Thunderkiks Augur

    Yeah I do tank, this mission I was molo. Even the rest of the content I tank. I box and get things done alone and gave up on merc tanks long ago. So I have been my groups tank for several years now. I do have both a raid geared monk and another that is group geared. The group geared one is the same name, just on a different server and still 105. She has a mix of mostly EoK group, a couple of chase pieces, and still some TBM crap hehe and still does pretty well. Obviously not as OP as m y raid monk but still gets the job done.

    This parse is combined about 30 mobs in FM so this is the group geared 105 monk. About half the dps of the raid monk but she only has 18k AA as well. Oh and still the tank, with a 2 hander

    /G Combined: A Syldon neophyte in 1035s, 181087k @174964sdps --- Thunderkiks 83869k@81033sdps (81033dps in 1035s) [46.31%]
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  7. DaciksBB Augur

    Regardless of the fact that he was tanking, he did say he didn't really use burns until the named. Sustaining 110k as a monk in RoS does sound extremely wrong, it means that you aren't popping what you need to be popping/you have a busted spam button/you are missing vital aas. Those extra heroics don't mean that he should be that far ahead of yours without burns.

    While I would love an upgrade to Eye of the Storm and a reduction on disc timers, we are fine and timer reductions would just break the class (especially if they're at the extent that you suggested)
  8. RangerGuy Augur

    So tanking your 105 monk is doing 81k in EoK entry zone. If he was 110 in Howling stones for 30 minutes straight no adps, typically with an alt group consisting of pally, wiz, druid, mage and rogue. You really think 110k for that monk with no support and not tanking is that far off? Thats not saving anything and playing the earthforce, eye between IoT and dicho with the the bigger stuff.

    IDK maybe it is me but I am popping heal, iot, dicho, spire to start, roll to earth, roll to eye with crane, then bp, then tiger's and when IoT and dicho up fire speed, then earth, then eye if back up or iron. Mix in terror to fill gaps. Using FPP, 2 fingered as they pop and mixing DF or FDF with speed or terror as it pops after first speed.

    I think you guys are doing more tanking in RoS than you realize which a lot of monks can't do like you can plus the benefit of being full raid gear. Otherwise its quite the gap even excluding procs like assassinate and decap.
    DaciksBB and Thunderkiks like this.
  9. Thunderkiks Augur

    Yeah looking at my lesser monk you might be right in where you are supposed to be. Still wont hurt to double check your mash key =)
  10. segap Augur

    Exactly. As an example, look how broken Zerker dps was when someone had the bright idea of giving them a sustained "knifeplay" like disc. Rogues got knifeplay because their auto attack dps sucks. The thought was boosting auto attack dps would break the class when using burn discs. The solution was to hamstring rogues with always having to have something running. It's not a burn disc, it's a band-aid for other issues.

    Monks' issues are different. Some fine tuning of existing things to give minor boosts would probably do the trick. A solution for one class doesn't necessarily fit another.
  11. catcattank Elder

    A mage in one of the guilds I'm in claimed a rogue was sustainability 700k in his group, I said, what's the problem, you're getting fast xp, and then he cited balance. Is that the only reason ppl make these posts?
  12. Thrillho Augur

    The changes to the caps for headshot / decap / assassinate are going to produce large DPS numbers.

    I'm not sure why people make "these posts" - from the sound of it, the OP made this post in particular because he wanted to see if monks are viable in the end game, not to complain about another class outperforming. I'm certain there will be posts made about sustained parses like the one you heard of, and I'm certain actions will be made to adjust it. Again.

    This is what I mentioned previously. Large changes like this will break a class and put them on a rollercoaster of changes. Currently they're at a high, next month they'll be at a low. Changing the crit amount from 750k to 5mil is not a simple change, and absolutely breaks a class. I saw a parse of a double backstab for 5mil each, instantly killing the mob. A mob which up until last year would take 20-30 seconds to kill. Seems absurd to negate mobs from the last expansion, and to restrict it to "the chosen few."

    When I started raiding in VoA, monks weren't a desired class. Same in RoF. And CotF. And TDS. And TBM. And EoK. And RoS. Look at the guild recruitment postings - I haven't checked in a while, but I'd wager Monk isn't a class that is getting recruited for most, if not all, raiding guilds. Changes like this feed that. Guilds want the class-of-the-month so they can maximize their damage output. Druids were highly recruited because of their broken DPS (and now they've been nerfed). Shamans as well (and now they've been nerfed). Zerkers too (and now they've been nerfed). Why take clerics? Take a druid or shaman, they can heal AND parse. Why take a rogue or a monk? Take a zerker and triple the damage. Why take a monk? Take a rogue or zerker or ranger and double or triple or quadruple your damage.

    No, don't make us a class-of-the-month. Don't break us. Yes, we need work. Gradually made changes, so we get increases slowly and they can be properly evaluated. I'd suggest the next steps should be to update our old disciplines to something more current, so that newer players can pick up the class and run with it and still do well, instead of having to go back to Underfoot to get spells. Update Master's Aura, Speed Focus, Ironfist, Drunken Monkey, Crane Stance. Add 3, 4, 5% increases to these and put them in as new Rk1-3 spells in a current expansion. An increase of nearly 700% (750k crit max to 5mil crit max) is only going to spell chaos.
    DaciksBB likes this.
  13. DaciksBB Augur

    From what I've heard from my guild's rogues, the large backstabs were changed shortly after the patch.
  14. Hickers Elder

    Not sure if anyone would be up for helping with this, but we could try and set up as controlled a test as possible to baseline what sort of figures people should be looking for with just normal spam dps. Similar to what Thrillho showed with his Degmar parse, just easier to repeat.

    For example, decide on a baseline set of buffs, easy enough to obtain (shammy/ranger/chanter).

    Then clarify what can/can't be used ability wise. Personally I'd say yes to Zan Fi as it's up almost 100% of the time, but other than that, nothing with a reuse longer than 60 secs. (when soloing I roll Dicho into my spam, but it would skew figures depending on how many mobs you can get through while its running). No crane or FPP.

    Lastly, decide on a camp easy to get to, and easy to pull singles consistently over time, for whatever sample size, say 40 mobs.

    Any thoughts?
  15. Thrillho Augur

    Wasn't my parse.

    Parsing vs. a combat dummy is a good controlled environment though. And the longer the parse, the more accurate it will be.
  16. Derresh Augur

    Decap does not benefit from the melee cap changes, decap is considered spell damage.
  17. Pfaffe Journeyman

    At the moment monk is a well balanced class. The problem is that only a very few know what a monk is capable of including raid leaders.
    With my normal set of mashkeys I'm around 180kdps sustained give or take in RoS groupplay. And that is without any heavy discs like dicho, speed or heel or AA. So quite the figures of Thunderkiks.

    I don't want to link raid parses because I'm scared that dbg devs will get some bad ideas and "fix" our class again to the worse.

    All I'm saying. Monk is not an easy class. In every class there are good players that know how to play the class and there are others who don't know the class properly and start blaming the class for their own incapability.

    Monks are great at:
    Crowd control (if the s... hits the fan, imitate death, stand up and echo nearest target. feign again, wait till echo runs out and start over and over again) If you had a group that knows monks you will be a great asset.
    Group support with our Master's Synergy (in EoK a guild zerker parsed himself with 15% higher sustained dps with me in group and we got another upgrade of synergy in RoS)

    But to achieve the above there is more to do than just hitting autoattack and go to the fridge for another beer. The discs are building up on each other. There is a huge difference between hitting DMS, Dicho, Ironfist, Synergy and then Crane Stance or the other way around.

    And IMHO monk is the best melee dps class to play with group gear because we do our major sustained damage with our skills, special abilities and not with the weapon (yes, a real monk uses 2HB atm). Of course we have weapon enhancing discs, but I'm talking about sustained dmg with mashkeys. Same like Thunderkiks mentioned.
  18. Brohg Augur

    Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
  19. Astral64 Augur

    180k sustain without burns is -not- considered good dps. Not even close.

    Your numbers on our adps are not accurate either. Any other melee class brings more to the group.

    I'm not sure who you raid with but monks absolutely need a hand in the raid dps department.
  20. Pfaffe Journeyman

    Maybe I need a definition of sustained dps.
    I described slack dps, means only attack and mash keys. If you call sustained = cycling through every disc you have then of course it's way higher.

    On raids my sustained is around 300kdps, burns way higher. And please consider, that I'm the only monk on our raids, means of course I miss the 33kdps of alliance. So please give me some figures what is considered GOOD dps.