Monks in 2022- wherefore art thou?

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Cicelee, Mar 2, 2022.

  1. Conq Augur

    Truth.
    Conq
  2. Snazster Elder

    Currently, you bring nothing to the table that a berserker of equivalent skill in their own class, levels, gear, AA, etc. can't beat. Worse you offer nothing unique to the raid except your sparking personality. and some ADPS for the other melees in your group. It's not enough.

    I am not quibbling about the dps. I can parse well over a million on a current content raid boss over a very long fight. I am saying it is a design flaw to have a class that offers nothing unique to a raid besides ADPS. ADPS is an add on to make every class feel special and appreciated; it is still not a class defining role.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  3. Szilent Augur

    Excluding ADPS, no one has what you're asking for. The three tank classes are fungible across their archetype, clerics & shm interchangeable, all other classes are "play alongside the best 42 players you know." If you exclude unique ADPS.
    Skuz and Cadira like this.
  4. Snazster Elder

    Are you a raider? Do you organize raids, set groups, direct tactics? Warriors, SKs, and Paladins can all tank, yes, but they are not fungible in raids, only in groups. In raids, the fact that they can do some very different things is what enables certain strategies and tactics.

    Except monks. We are pretty much one-trick ponies these days (didn't used to be), and we aren't even the ones that do that trick the best.

    Every class has something unique to bring to the table, even if it just being the best at what they do (archetypes). For a number of years, monks were not considered desirable on raids at all. Then they finally upped DPS and monks led the parses from Veils of Alaris through EOK, after which they started to slide relative to other classes. But rotating relative dps capability between classes is a hell of a way to run a railroad.

    Point being, if I had an unlimited number of players of every class, all with relatively equal skills gear, AA, etc. and the cute little mechanic called ADPS wasn't a factor, my ideal raid force would include zero monks. Even with ADPS I wouldn't ever want more than one per melee DPS group. And I've played a monk for over twenty years (over a third of my life) and at this point would quit the game before I would switch class.

    I'm not saying that monk DPS should be pumped up over those johnny-come-lately berserkers. I'm saying monks need a raid role other than as secondary melee dps.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  5. Szilent Augur

    yes.
    gnomeboss likes this.
  6. Dimuza Not New

    wow. this thread is discouraging.
  7. gnomeboss Augur

    eq is old and firmly entrenched in spreadsheet mode. any real innovation like a fourth viable tank role set sail a long time ago. if you focus on a secondary raid role, and actually get traction, you’re going to get adps. maybe you’ll steal fury from bl (pls cazic, make it so) and be delighted or maybe you’ll get uno reverse shadow flanking and feel jilted. regardless, you’ll remain mid tier dps and NEVER be in line for actual dps boosts because you got aDpS_aBiLiTy_01. if that’s the future you desire, I understand. makes perfect sense to want to be wanted and not slotted in the dz only because you’re a warm body.

    it will at this point that wizards will get nukes that only work on raid mobs and blossom into the glass cannons of death incarnate that they always should have been and you’ll be thinking that monks could have gotten some raid only shin kick button that would allow you to COMPETE with top tier melee dps, but instead you wanted a secondary role. be careful what you wish for ~
  8. Snazster Elder

    I may be reading too much into the producer's letter for the year, but it seems like they might be willing to shake things up a bit from the mini-cookie cutter expansions we've been getting since at least The Darkened Sea.

    We tend to overlook it, being so familiar with it, but at 23+ years, EQ is a phenomenon and, in their deciding to update and rejuvenate the game, I think there is at least a chance the new owners recognize this and are prepared to do what it takes to breath new life into it.

    A optional VR interface, for example, should be doable and might, along with a concerted effort at new graphics, UI improvements, etc. just prove to be well worth the outlay that the Russian oligarchs were unwilling to risk (wow, it's a good thing for the game that they sold it).

    I really regret missing the Community Resource Council sign up.
  9. HeatherPurrs Augur


    ^ doesn't play a monk and knows absolutely nothing about monks apparently.
    Please post your group 120 DPS chain that you use every fight and the order of burn please.
    Please post your group 120 named burn that you use when pulling a named in a group.
    Please post your 120 raid group DPS chain that you use every fight and the order of the burn please.
    Please post your 120 raid named DPS chain that you use on every raid named.

    Thanks, I can't wait for you to fix my DPS!
    adetia and Xianzu_Monk_Tunare like this.
  10. Cadira Augur

    Heh, if only.

    These are pretty much always the same thing, not sure where the disconnect is.

    Either way,

    In a raid as soon as I get bard stuff and shaman epic I hit:
    Speed Focus, (Focused?) Destructive Force, IoT, Spire, Composite, Dragon's Poise, BP click, FPP
    When SF fades I hit Heel and Stance

    Always parsed SF burn to be a bigger burn than Heel (At least in a lag free environment) But I know most have a hard-on for Heel. Who knows.

    After I get the next epics I hit Terror and Ton Po's, followed by Ironfist.

    Sprinkle in EF and EoTS in between bigger burns.

    Can hit shorter re-use burn aa's on cool down (try and have a bard's FE going at least) but might want to try and stack another composite and IoT with a second SF burn if you can get a second one in later in the event.

    I'm no monk expert but this seems to produce decent dps for me. On a lot of fights in my span of raid guilds, the monks are typically very formidable in dps to the zerkers, rogues, etc.
    Quatr likes this.
  11. HeatherPurrs Augur


    Your DPS and Burns almost never exceed 250k/DPS. Please post something that makes monks on par with SKs at least.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  12. Szilent Augur

    This is a very strange assertion. Do you play alongside Cadira, is the 250k dps number empirical? Your post before made it sound like you were unaware that Cadira even plays a raiding monk regularly.
    Quatr and Cadira like this.
  13. HeatherPurrs Augur


    When does he use Alliance? He's on a raid? No mention of alliance? This pretty standard burn he's talking about is the problem. At best fully AAed and geared he's at best when using Alliance hits 300 - 325k/DPS max. That's a joke in today's game for the effort required to get there.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  14. Szilent Augur

    I'm sorry for misunderstanding, it appears we have very different perspectives and so different expectations. While there's substantial variability for group make up, of course, the lowest performing monks I keep company with have sustained dps above 400k for a whole clear of ToL. Like, the monk that showed up a bit late this past weekend so got stuck in with just some loose tanks for adps, and died twice - that monk had over 400k sustained dps for the five (of 9 in ToL) events he was in.

    I have no context to interpret supposedly competent monks dealing damage in the range you're describing.

    edit: looked up tonight's anniversary raid - with none taking deaths, monks were all > 620k dps. Again, of course, there was variability for group make up. But the lowest was 620k dps for the whole event.
    Quatr likes this.
  15. 666DPSweDeliver Augur

    If your monks are parsing 400k dps sustained with a bard and shaman ... they suck. They should be sustaining almost twice that in current content.
  16. Szilent Augur

    read whole sentences please
  17. Cadira Augur

    You asked for my burn's and burn rotations, alliance isn't a burn lol. It's used when it needs to be used.
    Quatr likes this.
  18. HeatherPurrs Augur


    800k dps average... Wow. Ok. and that number is ok?

    Best to you all.
  19. Szilent Augur

    I'll bite. How're you doing across a full clear of ToL raids? The combines I have logs for are nicely assembled since we do all nine in one evening; if yours includes multiple runs of Intensity from splitting across multiple days, or y'all wait for Scarlet refresh or whatever I don't care. Just combine up your force's nine wins this week. Share with the class.
    Quatr likes this.
  20. HeatherPurrs Augur

    Your ability to bot 54 toons makes your view of things a bit skewed.