Monk Thunderkick and Twincast broken?

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Taiqwon, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. Attickus Journeyman

    First off, I would like to say that I apologize for my comment about stereotyping and lumping all in Triton together Killz. This apology is also aimed at Ashten. I was annoyed and I let that get the best of me when I posted what I did. I overstepped a line with that comment and I apologize. It just rubbed me the wrong way and I shouldn't have let it get to me the way I did.

    I do like to think I am level headed most of the time, but I do have my moments of stupidity and that was one of mine. I am glad you called me out on it because it was wrong of me. I lashed out when I shouldn't have.

    Lastly, to finish this post. I would like to say that I do agree with you on how the monk class is at the moment. I've thought that for a while myself that we are the most balanced of the melee DPS overall. Which is what led me to making a monk in the first place. However it doesn't mean there isn't room for improvements or change.
    Kiillz likes this.
  2. Kontra Augur

    I guess where we disagree is in your comment about wanting monks to be on a level playing field with other melee dps Attickus. I'll give you an example. On 2 occasions yesterday night I crashed and came back midfight in Arx on raids 4 and 5 and just got tossed back into the raid but not into a group for a while. I was able to continue dps and eating ae's and dots, cured the fire dot on myself in 4, mended through pulling agro on spark, even EF'd Lanys when tank bit it at one point and lived, etc. A rogue or berserker cant do that. They would have both died numerous times over, effectively dropping their dps to 0. As a monk, I can, and I can continue to dps while I'm waiting on that invite and group shuffle.

    What I'm saying is that for me, I guess it comes down to more than just cut and dried combat dummy parses of the perfect adps burn setups. When push comes to shove, as Kiillz pointed out, the difference is going to be in these types of situations where you cant really measure it with a meter. In alot of those cases, monk survivability is going to allow you to stay up to continue dps'ing on a new encounter when the rogues and berserkers are lying dead beside you. So when you talk about a level playing field, it kinda has to include talking about what lets us stay alive to keep that dps rolling.
    Kiillz, Sheex, Tenaka and 2 others like this.
  3. Povarmonk Elder

    Is that what this post is really about our dps which is lacking and should have been increased higher than we had received on the patch that nerfed our discs and increased our sustain (which was a huge joke for monks). If there is a problem with thunderkick and twincast then this issues needs to fixed and corrected ASAP!

    Now as far as our dps issue I agree we need a higher boost but I do not think we need to be on the same lvl as rogs and zerkers but we do need to be allot closer than we are now. Not to mention the fact that hybird dps should be no where near us on dps at all period!

    At the moment monks are way to dependent on ADPS classes and if they are not in your group firing everything they got and timed in sync with our self stuff we are screwed. It is to the point now that we have to everything tied together to even get in the top ten or one them really fancy keyboards that does all the work for you. I just hope that we monks can agree on some of these issues and not come to calling each other saying that so and so sucks shouldn't be playing and go reroll another class because it was never like this until TDS came out and wizard became the OP gods of EQ.
  4. Zarakii Augur

    between the straight 66% increase and now the ae change i think we are sitting pretty well (tho i dislike going the route of ae been there on my zerk) think the real thing to keep us balanced would be shorter reuse time on disc but even without that monks can give a very good run on parses when you think of some classes having a very decent burn up every 8 minutes compared to our speed focus they can get in 2 burns per event pretty often depending on guild clear speeds i was able to get in 2 speed focus burns on our arx1 runs until the changed to all melee dps now events are flying by so those quicker reuse burn classes can do better sustained a lot easier (isnt impossible for monks to still beat them on sustained tho) it really just comes down to whose behind the characters a good monk will always beat an average rog/zerk but if there both about equally skilled in syncing/sustaining disc yes rog/zerk will beat us and im fine with that
  5. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    Agreed and well said!
    Kiillz and Kontra like this.
  6. Insanekitty Lorekeeper

    If you want to know about dead zerkers ask Silv.

    I think im perma dead , thank god im a kitty with 9 lives oh wait , wasted em all tanking lany or calix or pretty much anything.

    with 180k hp and 13150 ac you think i could have enough time to hit ripo or something , bye bye fade you will be missed.


    IK was here
  7. Sarcogian Augur

    I blame all of this on Ashten, he's awful. Anyway, monks need a boost? I'll throw out some parses since everyone likes to cry and moan but never show proof.

    Saturday night my guild raided arx 3, 4, and ghost. I died once on arx 3 when I started AE'ing because the mobs weren't stunned. Oh poo, I died. Well, here's the combine from the rest of that night.

    /3 Combined: A phasma frigasia in 2175s, 1154118k @530629dps -- Sarcogian 105203k @48727dps (9.12%) -- Ranger 98973k @45757dps (8.58%) -- Beastlord + pets 75739k @35065dps (6.56%) -- Rogue 70545k @32690dps (6.11%) -- Berserker + pets 66056k @30610dps (5.72%) -- Necromancer + pets 54397k @29628dps (4.71%) -- Magician + pets 44188k @20486dps (3.83%) -- Mage + pets 42571k @19727dps (3.69%) -- Ranger + pets 42422k @19805dps (3.68%) -- Necromancer + pets 41607k @22836dps (3.61%)

    Friday night my guild raided arx 1, 2, attempted 4, and vitio. I believe I died twice, once on two and once on 4.

    /3 Combined: A praetor august vitali in 5250s, 2837928k @540558dps -- Necromancer 234953k @44976dps (8.28%) -- Wizard 233692k @44581dps (8.23%) -- Sarcogian 219924k @41978dps (7.75%) -- Necromancer + pets 139542k @26881dps (4.92%) -- Necromancer + pets 122629k @23770dps (4.32%) -- Beastlord + pets 118955k @22697dps (4.19%) -- Monk + pets 115670k @22074dps (4.08%) -- Ranger 109913k @22335dps (3.87%) -- Berserker + pets 108457k @20690dps (3.82%) -- Magician + pets 105170k @20067dps (3.71%)

    But Sarc, monks cannot burn! (we had 2 run away calls)

    /3 Praetor Vitio in 263s, 434776k @1653141dps -- Necromancer 44990k @176433dps (10.35%) -- Wizard 44770k @178365dps (10.3%) -- Sarcogian 25775k @100683dps (5.93%) -- Beastlord + pets 24510k @96878dps (5.64%) -- Necromancer + pets 23951k @97360dps (5.51%) -- Magician + pets 22794k @90452dps (5.24%) -- Rogue + pets 21703k @85445dps (4.99%) -- Magician 21182k @90519dps (4.87%) -- Necromancer + pets 20702k @86617dps (4.76%) -- Rogue + pets 18894k @74385dps (4.35%)

    On both nights, my group make-up was the same. Berserker, Shaman, Bard, Beastlord, Ranger. on Vitio, the Ranger logged and a Rogue took his place.

    Also, here's an AH parse just because.

    /3 Combined: A keeper of the flame in 1670s, 663101k @397067dps -- Sarcogian 98814k @59241dps (14.9%) -- Rogue + pets 61085k @36732dps (9.21%) -- Ranger 56561k @33910dps (8.53%) -- Wizard 55293k @33430dps (8.34%) -- Berserker + pets 52878k @31797dps (7.97%) -- Necromancer + pets 52784k @36886dps (7.96%) -- Beastlord + pets 37588k @22712dps (5.67%) -- Ranger 25639k @15417dps (3.87%) -- Rogue 25498k @15407dps (3.85%) -- Magician + pets 24653k @14824dps (3.72%)

    Learn the class you play before you cry about it.
  8. Zarakii Augur

    Should probably ask for consent before posting parses like that because now people are going to know those other classes are slacking pretty bad. Also side note if you think you are doing too good never ever post a parse on these forums youll get the whole class nerfed
    Spellfire and Sancus like this.
  9. Cicelee Augur

    No offense but by just looking at those random parses on a random day and wanting to extrapolate them across every raid event across every server, it appears to me that some of your fellow raiders need to learn how to play their class before you come to the boards saying monks are A OK.

    I play an alt monk, and I enjoy it both solo, group and raid. I feel that once monks accept they are not going to be topping a parse, then you can sit back and enjoy what you do and just have fun. My goal on our alt raids is to just break the top ten. If I do that, then I feel it was a good day.
  10. Riou EQResource


    When your only job on Raids is to DPS, it sucks bad not being allowed to be competitive for whatever reason that Daybreak deems. It becomes a "what's the point of even playing" type of deal. There's a reason one of the top guilds has 0 monks on its roster with 0 plans to recruit any and the rest are now down to like 1-2 max while also looking like they will not recruit anymore.
    Sancus likes this.
  11. Sarcogian Augur

    Better luck next time I did. Want any more useless points to bring up?

    There are plenty of skilled players to be competitive with in my guild. We have an abundance of warriors and clerics who make up about 16 players in the raid. Try being in a late night pst guild, hard to recruit players :p and the top guilds have no monks? Roi has 4 and triton has 6 on their roster. But apparently you guys like to post crap before you actually read into the facts thus the reason I hardly post here. If you think I care about the monks you're sadly mistaken. If they can't learn how to play one of the easiest in my opinion classes in the game that's on them and the guild for allowing it. I have seen parses from the "top guild". Savager is in the top10 given a dps group on combine. Know how I know, watch the stream. I have seen triton parses where 4 monks are in the top 10 even after the dps patch. If you suck monks want to complain about the class being under dps'd go ahead because you make the good monks separate further from the pack and then rogues and zerkers complain about overtuned monks.

    As for posting parses, no real information is given when we argue amongst ourselves about who's e is bigger with no proof. "I caught the biggest fish yesterday, no I did," is not going to get anywhere. If you actually go to the combat dummy and test stuff out, guess what, you learn. You then apply that knowledge into pve and you learn more and do better. If you play a monk alt, g t f o, you play it as an alt/bot you're it's not you're main and you're interfering with actual progress. I play a bard bot, should I go start making claims that bards need to have more powerful songs, better defensives, and better clickies to support my main? No that's ignorant.

    Say what you want about whatever you want, I know my skills, I know the skills of the monks from povar and they've seen mine before I transfered. Lots of very talented monks, but they put in the time to learn, except vilem since he's lazy.

    And if monks are not supposed to be dpsing on tds raids, what are we supposed to do? There's no trash to pull. All the mobs hit like mack trucks so support tanking isn't that wildly optional. I know sometimes monks tank raid bosses because a tank dies from a random quad round so they shaded step. But that's only 16s or so, plenty of time for a knight or warrior to step in. We aren't range dps even with our throwing tunic, vulak gloves from ctov, and using discs to increase throwing damage. So if monks casually accept not trying to achieve what theyre supposed to achieve what happens to us? We die out and no more monk class. The new expansion is supposed to make pulling more difficult, sweet let's do it because then we can still make top 10 and make the monks that cry about low dps be pullers.
  12. Zarakii Augur


    shortened to not spam.

    I wasnt trying to name call but after re reading it i guess it did come off that way and i apologize.
    I personally wont post my own parses here for the reason you said some under performing rog/zerk will go all emo and start waving their fist to the devs for the nerf hammer when it isnt needed its just different play styles.
    Guess what im trying to say is can monks use a boost? sure is it in dire need? no i can still always make a top 10 and i dont want to be able to beat rogs/zerks they got one job and one job only... to make sht dead

    Also we can reset arx1!!! thats gotta count for something? lol jk
  13. Povarmonk Elder

    Yet again this wasn't a post about monk dps this was post started about how something is broken or is not working right. I for one not calling out for major dps boost but I do wish we had got something better than what we did with patch to nerf our disc if they would have left terrorpalm disc line alone we would we should be at not to mention our destructive force AA. Because like some others have said already they did that to bring us in line with what rogs/zerkers have and want to nerf that AA for monks to hell and back especially compared to when we first got that AA.
    From the parse you posted Sarcogian it appears you have like no wizards try dealing with a butload of wizards in your guild. Raid encounters in TDS compared to other expansions seem to have greater resistance to melee all it seems is that wizards just look at a mob and they blow up. I just hope they are not like this in broken mirror cause TDS is one the worst expansions ever!
  14. Sarcogian Augur

    We are looking for members since we are a last night pst raiding guild. Not a lot of players actively raiding 12am to 4am est Fri sat mon. We do have very good necros so that is a huge bonus necro parses, as we all know, are impossible to be accurate since dots land at their feet. I understand the thunder foot thing, but don't become dependant on it. Vilem and myself were discussing parsing one night, I combined a couple of raid nights together for a 15k second parse and about 57% of my damage came from weapon, about 39% came from kicks, the rest was strikes and procs. So just auto attacking alone is a bulk of our dps as long as you disc properly. I'm never against a boost but with everything we have the ability to do, as mentioned before, I'm content with where we are at because a boost now means a nerf down the road because we are over tuned.
    Povarmonk, are you aahz or dropfast? :p doesn't matter either way just curious.
  15. Zarakii Augur


    not sure if im understanding your post right but they gave our DF a huge boost and the ability to use it under bad circumstances that we couldnt before (focused version) the TP nerf sucked but me personally i dont mind that much i think what monks really need is a more hastened version of one of our disc (probably not speed would be too op) maybe like eye of the storm its decent duration and 7 minute reuse now but out of the melee dps our burns have the longest reuse now (unless you want to add in hybrids) then rangers but there burns last for 5 minutes. What is making zerks wreck sht hardcore now is the main disc that got nerfed for them was there brutal line and for many years savage spirits went to the disc window so it was one or the other now they can stack the passive from the brutal boost with there main SS burn and i wont complain about that they are suppose to be the wizards of the melee classes. BUT even tho its not nearly as great for monks that passive we get from TP boost added on an infusion+speed burn with shaman epic up? shts goin down lol things like this come and go like the seasons its up to us how we cope with it
  16. Ashten-Prexus Journeyman

  17. Insanekitty Lorekeeper



    SS and Brutal disc are both Discs ... the short time that SS went to the song window is gone and has been gone for a very long time like before tds and lasted i think a week at most. I have no clue if u know what you are talking about. Oh and btw recent patch was a multi nerf , no more endurance regen due to fade being useless and the combination of 2 aa lines that allowed us have max overhaste without a bard for a short duration burst , But thats gone now as well. You can look up cascading rage and see if it still exists if you like to do research. It no longer exists. Also those 2 AA lines increase our accuracy and atk ontop of overhaste. Oh and btw monks do not have the longest burns , look up our cleaving acrimony disc , yes all our discs are from level 90 to level 86 , they have not been changed since , the only exception is savage spirit which had a few ranks added some time back.

    oh and btw did i mention our fade is 6 mins ? how often can u FD and fade and use AA to get out of combat .. i think you have 3 types.

    So far Fade fails 1 out of 20 times used on raids , and with a 6 min reuse with AA reductions i wouldnt open your mouth until you research something . Also our survival rate is the lowest of all melee in the game as far as raw mitigation is concerned.

    The lovely last part is frenzy has a smaller melee range than a normal swing u should check it out , its wonderful with proximity aggro.

    IK was here
  18. Zarakii Augur

    Think you took what i was saying the wrong way zerk was my main for 7 years so i would hope i knew what i was talking about.
    I meant zerks PASSIVE brutal disc the 82% now stacks with there SS burn if that wasnt a huge boost idk what to tell ya and before you get up in arms over what i said i also mentioned i wouldnt want to be bursting like a zerk does they are suppose to be the wizards of the melee classes. end has always been an issue for zerks i knew that you know that but we still played the class for what it was great at... makin sht dead fast. /sigh i guess i should know better then to mention other classes in an off class thread but was trying to get a point across that monks cant (and shouldnt) be out parsing an equally well played zerk/rog but it seems i have irritated a zerk and that was not my intention.

    as for research goes im probably the last person you should be talking to about that seeing as before i main changed i spent 6+ hours a day after every notable patch testing new things so please dont try and turn this into an internet trolling contest i simply mentioned the zerks burns minor stacking now and how monks cant do that because zerks should be bursting more then us.

    Also please tell me what your SS timer is at max hastened being in your main burn line up my old main burn is 15 minute reuse iirc zerks is 11 mins? i switched to using speed focus for its 14.5m reuse on most events right at the start to get 2 burns in per event and thats pushing it sometimes but you can get 2 SS burns in WITH that 82% passive from brutal every event even if you manage to down events stupid fast and rogues have a what 8 minute reuse knifeplay?

    Point being it was not my intention to say you guys are op or rogues either but monks being more of a sustained class having the longest reuse on disc out of the pure melee class seems a little off. will i complain about it to the devs? no i have absolutely no problems making parses. would it be nice? sure but its not a needed thing we as a community will always figure out ways to keep rockin
  19. Behelit Augur

    Your right on most of that, but I would mention Monks have more disc uptime than Zerkers; with Rogues being even higher than both.

    In 1 hour of fighting Zerkers have ~1032sec of disc time (4 discs cycled), Monks at ~1440sec of disc time(5 discs cycled), and Rogues are at ~2520sec and thats just from Twisted, Frenzied, Exectioners, and Knifeplay... if you add in Arcwork, Weapon Covenant, and Razor's Edge thats another 816sec brining the total up to 3336sec.

    So while Zerkers main disc does have a better recast than Monks, its somewhat balanced out that Monks have the higher disc uptime from more discs. Rogues are the outlier atm having the fastest reuse on discs while also having the most discs/disc time.

    I would be hammering for an Eye of the Storm upgrade if I was Monk, particularly getting its recast lowered to give it higher uptime while also boosting its power. Knifeplay is 3min duration, 5min recast vs Eye of the Storms 2min duration, 7.5min recast, even if the duration stays at 2min getting the recast down to ~4min and boosting the Hit Dmg mod to ~50% + Hit Dmg Bonus to ~600 would go a long way.

    Although I have a sinking feeling none of us will get any discs, at least not the ones we'd want.
  20. Sarcogian Augur

    Don't forget, any monk worth their salt uses earth force when it's up too.