That's totally flawed logic. Berserkers got a higher percentage boost than rogues. Does that mean berserkers are designed to be head and shoulders above rogue on dps? No - equal footing is about the ideal spot. Berserkers got a higher percentage boost simply because they were the weakest amongst us and so needed the largest boost. It's irrelevant what percentage gain monks got. What matters is how they play right now.
I find it hard to tell as most of our monks quit during the summer due to the duration of melee patheticness just wearing them down to the point of exasperation. One of our top 3 has started playing again, but he just isn't competitive now. I'm not sure why, but he's pretty low attendance now so I fear the fire may have burnt out :/ However I have seen a nightly combined RoI parse and it had rog, monk, rog as a trio in the top 10 with all 3 within 2% of each other. (That was top rog and top monk.) I've no idea whether that parse was cherry picked or just a typical evening, but even the top melee was only another 8-9% ahead of the monk so that doesn't look so bad. Remember monks have better defense, better avoidance, and most importantly zero negative effects to battle (root/blind disc on ber, rear arc & damage magnifier disc on rogue). If anything with the balance, I'd say the main problem at the moment isn't melee sustained or ber/rog vs monk, but that ber > rog >> mnk all require the AoE disc to maximise our single target dps. This is a relatively recent addition and IMO still represents poor design. It makes people look at the few cases where we can burn maximally and claim it's "berserker dps" as if it's the norm.
Looking over parses tonight and I do see a Rogue and Monk that are only 4 million total apart( Lowest parsing Rogue vs highest parsing Monk), but I'm just not sure how accurate that is..Being a caster and all..
Most guilds do not have support classes enough to go around for every dps group. I am sure in RoI basically everyone gets what they need or close to it so you can accurately compare combined parses for the night and claim monks are still competitive in some form. But I imagine most of EQ is like my situation where not only do monks, magicians and some other classes do less dps on their own but they also then are the last to get support because of this less overall damage. So it becomes a double hit as any smart guild isn't going to waste their adps if they can help it. If your guild only has 2 bards or 2 shaman or 2 beastlords or 2 enchanters or 2 druids to go around regularly someone has to get the short end of the stick. And its not going to be the classes that dominate any fight duration 4 minutes or under.
So we're comparing non-supported Monks vs fully supported Rogues/Zerkers now? That's not a class balance problem, that's a guilds roster problem.
It is and it isn't. You can't expect every guild to have every single support class for every dps class. Someone is always going to be shorted and end up with only some adps or no adps. When the gap between one dps class and another is too big or if one dps class has better dps in every scenario the lacking class basically no longer serves its purpose as they will always be the last to get adps because of their weaker dps potential. Why would any guild choose a monk for a adps group if they have equal rogues or zerkers? There is no scenario where the guild is better off with the monk. Same applies to mages these days. Why would any guild choose a mage for a adps group when wizards do everything better then them or if its a long fight a necro is better than them. You honestly think its good for the game that only 3 classes can burst for twice what the other dps classes can do while at the same time maintaining dps levels at what others can burst for out to 4 minutes?
This isnt happening though, at least not among the melee. There is no large gap between melee if they all have support. If anything Monks are last to get ADPS because they are absolutely the least effected by said adps. They have a HHE proc equal to the power of Ruaabri's Fury, Flying Kick being almost completely controlled by self modifiers (barring like Ruchu can't think of much adps that effects Flying Kick), and the weakest auto attack of the pure melee. As long as a Monk has a Bard in group they can be effective and competitive. You can't just extrapolate that Monks are bad dps and thats why they dont get adps, its way more complicated than that. Or are Wizards suddenly bad dps/dead class because they're last to get Bards?
You are glossing over my main concern again. If the gap between classes is to big or if one class simply outperforms another in every scenario then anytime there is lacking or missing adps those other classes always get screwed. Lets just talk numbers since you are saying there is no gap. Can magicians or monks do 400,000 dps on sub 60 second fights? Can magicians or monks do 350,000 dps on sub 90 second fights? Can magicians or monks do 300,000 dps on sub 120 second fights? Can magicians or monks do 200,000 dps on sub 240 second fights? Only zerkers, rogues and wizards can do the above. If only the first 2 scenarios applied than no big deal because as you said those classes are supposed to be the best burst. But when all 4 scenarios apply to wizards, zerkers and rogues there is never a situation where a guild should choose a monk or magician to waste an adps spot over one of them. RoI is an outlier as you guys have support for all always thats not the case for 99% of EQ. For the rest of EQ there are always choices being made and when 3 classes have a gap as big as they do and outperform everyone else in 95% of the game there is no longer a choice to be made.
Then why are you here saying what monks should or shouldn't be? As someone that's actually played a monk for 15 years I can say monks have ALWAYS been a top tier dps class. Monks don't do....anything...else. No ADPS, no group buffs, no support. Their contributions to raids are simply dmg just like rog, zerker, mage, wizard, necro. The concept that monks aren't a pure dps class is a VERY recent concept, founded in fantasy, and only in the minds of some people that lack perspective. Right now monks need some love and this loss of dps (the point of this thread) is just one item in a list of problems we have.
You'd actually be surprised but we dont have adps for everyone all the time, in fact the past 3 weeks I've gone without any beastlord in group while another melee group (WITH A MONK! GASP) has had a beastlord each week. And I'm not sure what you think but mid tier guilds arent downing every event in Arx in under 5min, hell most guilds take 2-3min just for Vitio... 5min or less isnt "every situation/scenario" in current raids. Talking about burst proves very little, when Arx clears are minimally 1600-1800sec(melee fight time, casters are more like 2000-2200 cause of event 3 mostly) for RoI (and again I'd imagine its at least double that fight time for the average mid-tier guild). I completely disagree that because 3 classes dominate in burst that it means all other dps classes are pointless. Monks and Mages have no problem being competitive on our nightly combined parses. Thats not to say Monks/Mages are ever topping the parse, or even in the top 3, but they are absolultely capable of making the top 10 and holding 80-90% of a Rogue/Zerker combined. Stretch our events out longer and the burst becomes even further watered down allowing Monks/Mages to close the gap.
I guess I am the only one. We should continue the trend of ignoring what burst classes are good at and balance them around total combined parses for an entire night. Having 1 million dollars in the bank your entire life is the same thing as winning 1 million dollars and having it in your bank 2 days before you pass. You both had 1 million it doesn't matter how much more useful having it your entire life is. Piss poor analogy but sums up most peoples concern with the recent trends for burst classes.
This is mainly a content problem then. In years past there was a pull team and monks had a more defined, critical and sometimes even skill based role of pulling. Now that raid zones basically don't have trash and everyone has fade, there are fd potions and so on and so forth not only is that role missing, but the utility that made you powerful has been farmed out. It's much the same for sks. (The difference is, at least dps stacks. Try being an excess tank - it pretty much doesn't.) If you want to use the above logic, there's pretty much no reason to ever have more than 0-1 sk in most raids. That shows a need of raid utility, not core tanking power or dps. And let's also not totally ignore the survivability angle please. A zerk/rog still has some of the absolute highest risk of death on raids of any class, they can't self heal at all, they take weird directional and movement penalties that impact dps, etc. A smart monk on the other hand using their defensive tools stands a better chance of survival when it hits the fan. No you won't tank a raid boss, but when adds are loose I bet your shaman prefers keeping you alive compared to some others. I would think zerk/rog should win both the burst and the overall parse, it's just the overall should be a loooooot closer.
First off Monks were like the original pullers, so if you've been playing Monk for 15 years, it's kind of sad you had no clue about that. Monks have "good" dps and "good" survival ratings, whereas Rogues and Zerkers will get pounded compared to a Monk. So it makes sense that Monks would have to sacrifice some DPS for that. Look at Mages, we have a pet, so we can't go 100% with a Wizard. I can't say how accurate that parse is, and I stated that. I died x3 in AM5 and I was in hover mode for some stupid reason for awhile( 2 mins tops ). I'm willing to bet that the lowest rogue in my guild and the highest monk were about 10 million apart at least by the end of the night though. That's not even talking about the highest parsing Rogue. So in reality the only person who might lack perspective is you. Next time you claim you've been playing for 15 years, make sure what you're saying is historically accurate.
Yes much in the same way that you're ignoring what Monks and Mages are good at, everything beyond 4min into the fight... I guess the more important question is, do your Wiz/Zerker/Rogue all end up about even at the end of night? Or do you maybe see one of those 3 drastically pull ahead on combineds due to higher non-burn dps? Zerkers can crush Wiz + Rogue on a burn, but that doesnt mean diddly squat when by the end of the event the Wiz does twice as much as the Zerker + Rogue, and the Rogue catches up to/often passes the Zerker within 3min. Likewise, just because Zerkers/Rogues/Wiz crush everyone else on burst doesnt mean a thing unless they can maintain that huge lead through out the fight, and currently only 1 class is capable of that (hint, its not a melee). So the complaints of Monks getting crushed by Zerkers/Rogues are either highly exaggerated or some people are only looking at Vitio parses as the standard for balance lol.
A lot of people for some stupid reason DO use Vitio as a benchmark, I can't understand why. The fight lasts like 70 seconds ( in my guild ) so I can't see why anyone would do that. Obviously you'll see the burn classes doing great on that parse, it's their bread and butter.. The parse I'm looking at has about 1100 seconds on it, so it's not even close to a burst. The monks are coming in about 5-10 mill behind the lowest Rogues. To me that says Monks are in a pretty good spot right now. Both Rogue and Monk had ADPS ( Bard/Shaman ). I guess the real question, and I asked this before..When Monks say they need their DPS increased, lets take a Rogues damage for example..What do you think you should do of a Rogues damage? 90%? 80%? 70%? Don't be stupid and think you're going to all of a sudden burn as hard as a Rogue, Monks aren't a burn class, but as previously said, a sustained class with survivability. Speaking for all Mages here, I wish we got an actual boost in this recent caster/melee boost. We got nerfed. Also, we're only supposed to do about 70%-75% of a Wizards damage. So stop being greedy, that doesn't mean the issue which this thread was originally posted about shouldn't be fixed, but the gap between Monks and Rogues are pretty good right now, besides burns, as it should be.
It always comes down to this question, and both players and devs always dodge it. I get why devs do - if they ever did it'd get misquoted more often than the Holly casuals Naggy quote on roids. But folks rarely are honest and admit their classes strengths' because #luldevshateus
Well, I can understand that. There was a thread where Mages and Wizards were throwing out parses and shortly, very shortly after it, Mages rains were nerfed, our first spire was destroyed...So, I can understand hesitation regarding being honest with numbers.
so what your saying is we should give your arses up to devs so u can get nerfed some more as the 70-75% marker isent reatched yet =)
