Monk FD fail and Epic Stun Proc

Discussion in 'Melee' started by casper69, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. casper69 Journeyman

    having one and playing one as your main are two different things... and i love that it defaults to monks not playing their class right when FD fails and causes a bit of chaos on a pull... lol.. that's great man, really... really funny lol..
  2. Izcurly Augur

    Stop making assumptions. My monk was my main for a long time, even for raiding.

    And I love that you're changing "wipes a group or raid" to "causes a little chaos on a pull". Either it's a problem or it isn't. Either you failing a FD didn't matter or it did. And if it did, you should be able to finish the split far enough away to not wipe anyone else.
  3. casper69 Journeyman

    though, that is a good point, it fails so rarely, one can become comfortable with using moving mountains and FD close to the camp... then when it fails... yes, there is always that chance it will fail, but it seems to always be when you least expect it. But that's our fault as monks... right? we are crappy monks because FD failed and there was no way to react fast enough. Or our healer heals us because they see us FD... that's our fault too because we didn't type "DON'T HEAL" fast enough while trying to get up and kite the mobs away...

    FD would cause raids and groups to function so much more smoothly if it never failed for monks, how would this not benefit EVERYONE arguing against it?
  4. shiftie Augur

    your answer is that it is hardcoded to fail like other abilities like gate, or wiz/druid ports.

    No amount of skill or levels of the class is going to circumvent this hardcoded aspect of the game. You could have 100% success rate and it can still fail because of it.

    You didn't ask why it failed, you simply said it shouldn't because of X. Your X being illogical or irrelevant are what people argued against.

    By your logic you have been able to autoattack since level 1 ... why not complain that you still miss?
  5. Tearsin Rain Augur

    i think this the heart of the issue people are having with your argument here - that 'wipe or chaos' and 'is a problem' are necessarily and naturally symbiotic statements in this context.

    fundamentally speaking, many things in how EQ was conceived and designed was to specifically and intentionally have an element of chaos built into the system, because when you're dealing with an AI and the strictly static interaction that entails, probability of things going haywire is pretty much the only way you can add variance on the game side of things.

    gate collapsing, ports leaving random people behind, FD fails, charm breaks, root breaks, damage output variability, a lot (though not all) of pathing weirdness... these are all things that were put in the game for the sole purpose of taking a static constant (mob AI and the fact it can only respond to if/then behavior and can not be dynamic or reactive and intuitive) and injecting random chance into it.

    so at the end of the day you have to understand that you're arguing against a core foundational principle of how the game is built from the ground level, and no matter how you try and frame that argument there are going to be a lot of people that disagree with the very premise.
  6. casper69 Journeyman

    i knew someone would try to bring that up lol... well my offensive is maxed so why do i still miss?? lol... yea, not the same thing AT ALL.. This request is class specific and has to do with the concept of pulling, not dps. I'm ok with missing a bit on high level mobs, their AC is higher than lower lvl mobs... I'm not really seeing a connection with the two ideas... DPS and pulling are not comparable.
    We don't need to ask why it fails, because we know it does, and it CAN be fixed in the code... That would not be a game changer at all... What would be wrong with monk's FD not failing?? That is the question, how would FD not failing for monks, not benefit EVERYONE? why argue my logic of how things work, when it doesn't matter? Why argue the fact that other classes have, or don't have? Allowing maxed out FD for monks to not fail, would not hurt anyone and it would help everyone... what's the problem?
  7. casper69 Journeyman

    In that case Tearsin Rain, why does bard fade never fail? or imitate death, or invulnerability, or the secondary and primary anchors, Why introduce mastery of the past?... there are so many things that don't fail in the game tearsin... Chaos is and would still be there if FD didn't fail, because there are mistakes on the players end.
  8. shiftie Augur

    because of what Tearsin said in his post..

    Random failure is basically the only dynamic change static AI can achieve. RNG is random for a reason.

    It isn't a correlation to dps and pulling it is a correlation to no fail systems after 100 levels. You made the argument that after so many levels you ought to be able to perform an action with a zero failure rate. The argument fails to present sound reasoning unless all other randomness is removed after X levels are achieved. Which is not the way the game works

    If it were to stop failing because that is the design decision chosen it won't be because you are now level 100. And most long time vets support the randomness. It creates adaptable situations that otherwise would not exist. While inconvenient at times make the best stories of everquest. Wiping a party because of something like this I would actually consider a welcomed addition to raiding or grouping.
  9. casper69 Journeyman

    @shiftie--ok, so i'm guessing you work on the coding of the game, maybe you can change it for me? And i'm guessing you aren't a puller, unless it's a bard and you love laughing at how monks are crap pullers now..
    ROTFL wiping is welcomed eh? Let's put that up for a vote... How many people want to wipe because of the lovely randomness of FD failing?!
    and my argument presents unsound reasoning? I can guarentee, you are not the majority shiftie, i'm sorry.
  10. shiftie Augur

    You don't have to code the game to understand what 15 years have taught the playerbase or what the majority of everquest knows in terms of how the game works.

    I have been able to taunt since the game started but it still fails, and sometimes someone might die because of it. While that happens very few and far between I acknowledge why it happens adapt and move on.

    If you can't pull as a monk in modern eq and consider the class crap. You should do more research. FD failure .000000000000000001% of the time could not disqualify monks as valid pullers or add weight to your hyperbole. Monks are just fine at pulling.

    FD failure and the chance at a raid wipe... (not the actuality of it happening because I haven't even heard of that happening for at least 4-5 years) is the reason other classes exist. It is also the reason players communicate and hone their skills at their niche.

    You're just mad because people don't agree with you. I'm sorry that you have to actually think of what to do while playing instead of everything being an automatic win 100% of the time.
  11. casper69 Journeyman

    rather than seeing what great idea it is, you are now saying that you'd rather wipe than allow monks to have it... what's your problem with monks? You are living under a rock shiftie, cause all the classes are leveling out for the most part and randomness and chaos is fading VERY quickly from the game... if that's what you crave, maybe you should think about switching games, cause that is currently being eliminated from the game... Just because i'm using raid wipes as an argument doesn't mean that this idea stems from wiping a raid... it's a concept, a picture to help understand the possible damage that can be caused, but i'm arguing with what? a paladin and some necro's and a wanna be monk alt?
    all i'm getting from this is you guys hate monks, cause there is no reason it can't be changed and no LOGICAL reason for it not to be, you are arguing that it goes against the concept of randomness? AGAIN why does bard fade work 100% why do casters get Mastery of The Past??? to get rid of fizzle 100%! you guys are so freaking dense and absent from reality it's hilarious.
  12. Ragnard Elder

    To casper69: Sometimes it's a good idea to step back and take a look at the situation. Is every other person in this thread dense and absent from reality or just me? If we apply occam's razor here the outcome is obvious.

    My main character is a monk and I'm perfectly ok with FD failing from time to time. If anything, an AA that gives FD failure a chance to instantly reset the timer could be pretty cool. You still need to react to the fail, but can do so faster.

    It would be cool if they updated all the epic 2.0 clickies to "work" past their intended level, but they're more likely to screw them up and/or nerf them than fix anything so I'm happy to keep them how they are.
  13. casper69 Journeyman

    I believe you would agree with me though, it would help monks pull more confidently and help raids go smoother if it had a 100% success rate.
    i feel like if they actually tried, they could fix the stun portion on the 2.0. It might just be me, but i'd like to see them at least trying, rather than saying, "well we'd probably screw it up anyways." All they'd have to do is change the stun out for a different one that does the same thing, but wouldn't show immune to stun on stunnable mobs. obviously if you are 7 or 8 levels lower than a mob, the stuns won't land, just like any other spell, but for blue con/yellow con it would perform the way it is supposed to
  14. Ragnard Elder

    I don't know about you, but my pull confidence is 100%! If I fail a FD, I have an audio trigger for it and hotbars full of tools to get myself out of trouble. Some of my best memories in this game are of situations that were caused by a failed FD (or mend, or invis, etc...). I don't really care if other classes have something that's 100% success rate, I like the little surprise here and there when things don't go how I intended.
  15. casper69 Journeyman

    i have an AT for it also, but it's frustrating when ya get in a pinch and then ya got people waiting on ya to get a rez and continue pulling, just because it failed. i dunno, maybe i am part of the few...
    But, if there was an AA that allowed FD never to fail, just like Mastery of The Past for caster's fizzles... would you purchase it?
  16. BoomWalker Augur

    Mastery of the Past works on lower level spells...what is the lower level version of FD monks need to have never fizzle? Seems it is an easy target to pick on that is nothing like the topic of FD never all. But keep bring it up....since that level 16 spell a Necro casts (FD) is never going to fizzle...but does that mean it is never going to fail? Ports...never fizzle..but do they never fail?

    How many ways to monks have to FD? Just 2? Don't Necros and SKs get like 3? Maybe more?

    Shouldn't a pulling monk be able to FD...have it fail...get up...and FD again with another ability if the player is use to playing a monk? In some cases the monk may die...stuff happens...but wouldn't most of the times it fails it be possible to avoid death?

    Does bard fade work against SI/named mobs? Meaning if they are next to a SI/named mob they fade...does the SI/named mob not seem them ever again? Don't other classes with fade have a problem where they can fade...drop aggro...then the SI/named mob sees them again and again aggros and kills them? Monks, Necros, SKs can FD...and the SI/named mob doesn't see all...until they stand back up...

    The request is unrealistic...the argument for why it is needed is weak...the points raised for why it is a poor request vary from just as weak to fairly strong....but in the end...the request is just not reasonable.
  17. Kiillz Augur

    FD failing is just another dynamic of the game, no one has anything that is written in gate dt etc. Its also part of the rush when pulling is required in the game, not much of it left anymore, but hell nothing like trying to split a bunch of mobs ie trash clear for RoF minis and knowing it fails and your toast. On a side note, imitate death should always be up pretty much and thats our get out of jail card free on a burnt FD. It fails so minimally idk why the thread is even in existence here and on a side note.....

    if your failed fd wipes a group or raid you are nt doing it right. That has nothing to do with the fail but a failure as puller getting the mobs to close to the group/raid to begin with or your healer healing you when they should not be, most healers worth their salt know not to heal till told. just my 2cp.
  18. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    No? Monks don't need any more power right now. Relative to other melee they are doing just fine....
  19. strongbus Augur

    I won't talk bout the fd but on the epic part. Dervs have stated a few times that a few dervs don't like the fact that people are still using their epics(clickies or in necros cases wearing it) at the higher levels. So you can kiss any chance of them making them more powerful good by,
  20. casper69 Journeyman

    how is FD not failing giving monks more power? actually it would help you, w/e class you play get more power from making pulls easier on raids... and getting YOU gear easier... Monks aren't OP... yet from the beginning of eq till now, people hold onto that concept... I don't know why.

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