Just take his total damage from one parse and divide it by dps. His first parse looks to be around 3825 seconds and his second around 3636 seconds. Wouldn't be the first time the game doesn't function as intended, if that is truly intended. Also wouldn't be the first time someone is borderline condescending and makes themselves out to be a fool. Always have been able to, and probably should have before you posted this: Parsing is a valuable tool we use to gathering empirical evidence to support our stance. Without said evidence it's simply anecdotal. Great post.
Well this pretty much backs up exactly what you were saying regarding every 100 hDex adding around 1% to the crit % that you saw with your initial quick 5 min parses. Also, considering it is only around a 0.75% difference in the DPS and you only had Fists of Fury going (which benefits the flat damage bonus of hStr more than the crit% increase of hDex) if you had been running with full buffs (group or raid) I could definitely see that difference shrinking fast and possibly even switching depending on the situation.
my next goal in the next couple of days will be to redo these parses with full raids buffs + Zan Fi and Fists of Fury, minus rng/shm/brd/etc cooldowns, and then possibly include all of those as well. Bout to start the parse now before sleep, but looking for a BST for Fero first. I'd also like to do a 2-3 min burn with all of above with HSTR and then with HDEX. Though if it's close in dps with such a short time it may be too hard to tell. I could also easily do a 10min parse of each spamming kicks to see if Thunderfoot % changes much. Any suggestions?
I appreciate the parses, iZealot. I've found similar results in my own parses. Keep up the good work!
Have some more parses to upload. I also compared 1st spire vs 2nd spire. 1st spire only increases proc rate from weapons (around 22.5% to ~47%). (spell info notes +28% crit which seems to match). 1st also increases shm/ench buff procs, more on that later, but NOT monk self buffs/procs (except possibly Thunderfoot, yet to be tested extensively). Comparing a raid buffed autoattack parse, 2nd spire was 1.5% dps more (117,559 dps vs 119,223 dps). If you then add in 2nd spire dmg increase to kicks, you are probably going to see even more of a gain from 2nd spire. Will test in the future. but self procs i've tested have no proc % increases from 1st Spire: epic click, dragon's balance, infusion of thunder, fists of fury, etc. I haven't tested Thunderfoot yet, but I doubt 1st Spire helps proc rate if neither of these do. We'll see. Procs from other classes like ench/sham/brd i've yet to test fully, but I just tested with Roar of the Lion 1 and Night's Endless Terror 2. With 1st spire their proc rates increased from 21.2% to 42.5% (Lion 1) and 15.3% to 30.5% (NED 2). Have not tested Song of Suffering yet (another DD proc). Also, it seems from the data that Heroic DEX does not affect proc rates on these either (epic click, dragon's balance, infusion of thunder, fists of fury (from an 8HR parse). there was a less than 1% difference in proc rate for 210 DEX difference. And the dex parse proc % on these was ever so slightly lower than STR (just random; within 1%). I have not tested if HDEX increases proc rate from Roar/NED/BRD, but I probably won't bother because I think the only thing to find out now is how much (if any) HDEX increases thunderfoot proc. I also want to check if 1st spire affects it. But, as I said before, crit rate % does increase with more HDEX. With 210 more HDEX it increased by ~1.7%. DirDmg crit % increased by .1% (weapon proc from curtaincaller, too small to be noticeable or that .1% could be in margin of error), and Strike crit % went up .4%. Now between epic click, infusion of thunder, and dragon's strike, i'm assuming epic click and infusion of thunder are dirdmg and dragon's strike is strike dmg. I'll check just to be sure. also, destructive force - dps 50% aoe dmg on a 0 AC dummy. this was the case with a 1319 AC, it was around 38%, and on a 4504 AC mob, it was receiving 27% aoe dmg. Now, HDEX has a lot going against it (offensive wise). It may slightly increase crit rate, but lesser dmg per hit makes HSTR better for autoattack. The only redeeming factor for HDEX may be if it increases proc rate % for Thunderfoot (and possibly brd/sham/ench proc buffs). It also seems that 210 extra HSTR increases my flurries per minute by 1.3 (could be random). On a side note, Gift of Richu barely increases crit % chance (1 or 2%, I forgot), but did seem to increase crit hit DMG by 10-20%. Bard epic click only increased accuracy around 4%, while quick time increased by around 7%, and both together seemed to stack. I had around 92 or 93% with both going, up from 83.8%. That's pretty huge. bard epic states 140% accuracy while quick time states 25% chance to hit, btw. Tonight I can either test increase/decrease of DEX for thunderfoot procs % or 1st spire vs 2nd spire thunderfoot procs. I think i'll test Dex for Thunderfoot first, and then spires tomorrow. I'll have an 8 HR parse for each. Then in a couple of days i'll probably test HSTR vs HDEX or 1st vs 2nd spire autoattack+autokicks/thunderfoot with raid buffs no short term cds from other classes. I'm learning towards 2nd spire for superiority here, but we'll see. Parses below. Buffs on for raid dmg parses: Destructive Force IV, Dicho 5, Glyph of the Cataclysm, Illusion Benefit Dragorn War Mask, Ranger Shout buffs, Enrichment, Enchanter haste, Unity, all RK.3, Fists of Fury, Infusion of Thunder V, Dragon's Balance Effect III, Drunken Monkey Flying Kick Boost II. No Combat Ability discs running.
Results on Thunderfoot testing, 1st spire vs no spire. Everything seems consistent and it seems that Thunderfoot is NOT affected by 1st spire. Will test HSTR vs HDEX soon.
First parse (STR type 5's): /GU Combat Dummy Zeka in 54001s, 10145689k @187880 --- Savager 10145689k@(187880 in 54001s) /tell Savager Savager -vs- Combat Dummy Zeka: -- DMG: 10145689016 -- DPS: 187880 -- Scaled: 187880 -- Crush: 9810608014 -- DirDmg: 335081002 -- % dmg as normal: 52.6% -- % dmg as critical: 47.4% -- Non-crit rate: 69.4% -- crit rate: 30.6% -- Attempts: 1045084 -- Hits: 884668 -- Missed: 160416 -- Accuracy: 84.7% -- Avg Hit: 11468 -- Max hit: 22496 -- DMG to PC: 0 Second parse (DEX type 5's): /GU Combat Dummy Zeka in 52361s, 10073367k @192383 --- #1 Savager 9977227k@(190547 in 52361s) /tell Savager Savager -vs- Combat Dummy Zeka: -- DMG: 9977227289 -- DPS: 190547 -- Scaled: 190547 -- Crush: 9656900006 -- DirDmg: 320327283 -- % dmg as normal: 48.4% -- % dmg as critical: 51.6% -- Non-crit rate: 65.8% -- crit rate: 34.2% -- Attempts: 1004651 -- Hits: 850520 -- Missed: 154131 -- Accuracy: 84.7% -- Avg Hit: 11730 -- Max hit: 22454 -- DMG to PC: 0
What buffs were you running I'm assuming this is auto attack raid buffed because of the DPS, but did you also run any self buffs/aa/combat abilities? What level dummy and AC? And what were HDEX and HSTR levels per parse? It seems from the increased crit rate you must have gained around 500HDEX from augs? I'm a little surprised HDEX did ~1.5% more damage, unless you had proc buffs on from ench/sham/bard, which could tip it over. OR maybe because your weapon is faster? In my auto-attack parses (both completely unbuffed and also long-term raid buffed), swapping HDEX and HSTR (210 each for 420 total point swing), HSTR edged out by around 2.2% more than HDEX. From my testing HDEX increases crit rate, crit rate (and dmg) on procs on weapons (but doesn't seem to increase weapon proc rate), Epic proc rate, Infusion of thunder proc rate, Dragon's Balance proc rate, and proc rate (and possibly crit chance) from buffs like ench/sham/brd (NED/ROAR). BTW HDEX does not increase Thunderfoot procs (Nor does 1st spire). Now fully raid buffed, with various class cd's going and self buffs, the increased proc rate from HDEX could put it over. I'm not sure, maybe straight up dmg from HSTR is better. I think my next parses will be full burns with +210/-210 HDEX/HSTR with each Terror/Speed/Zagali, raid buffed, + bard/sham/ench/rng/etc cd's. and also raid buff self cds.
I've been wondering about this the whole time, since I started reading this thread. Maybe as a baseline, for monks, HSTR is better, but when everything is going (Raids!) that HDEX eventually passes it up. It would be interesting, to me, if there was a break point where HDEX for sure passed HSTR. I doubt anyone would do the math to find the exact figure, since that figure will change as other classes throw in their abilities I would assume, but a ballpark estimate would be awesome. For example, what if at, these are random numbers, +100 Heroic stat Heroic Strength was always better than Heroic Dex, but at 150, with all abilities going, monks reach a breakpoint where HDEX surpasses it. It's something that is present in other games but I don't hear talked about too much in EQ. Regardless, awesome parses and keep up the good work (all the monks contributing in this thread). Edit: Grammar.
Tested Thunderfoot on HDEX. I parsed with +752 HDEX and +252 HDEX (-500 HDEX). Base DEX was the same both attempted (over max). Same buffs/procs - ench haste, unity, ranger shout: All Rk.3. ranger shou. +500 HDEX did increase Dragon's Balance proc rate by around 21% ( ~1% per 25HDEX). +500 HDEX did NOT increase Fists of Fury proc rate. +500 HDEX did increase Infusion of Thunder by around 5% (6.79% to 11.3%) (~1% per 100HDEX). +500 HDEX did increase Monk Epic 2.0 proc rate from around 23% (26% to 49%). +500 HDEX did NOT increase Thunderfoot proc rate. 752 HDEX Thunderfoot proc rate was 2.54% (In multiple tests with high HDEX this varied from 2.51% to 2.72%) 252 HDEX Thunderfoot proc rate was 2.69%
Good question. That's definitely a lot harder to answer. With WoW simulation programs, you can parse a 24 hour sim in about 20 seconds. This speeds up the process of min/max tremendously, not to mention damage formulas are simple and public information. I'd like to do some comparisons against a ~5,000 AC dummy. All my parses previous have been on a 1319 AC dummy (lv 109). Maybe STR edges out more then. I'm not sure what else to do now except do long parses going all out with raid buffs and procs on a dummy, and also with long-lasting buffs only (since you aren't always going to have full cd's for more than a 30 seconds+).
I love you Sav. I've been dealing with real world issues and it has drastically effected my playtime and even raid time. At this time I could not care about anything everquest related. I wish it would have been possible during the first night we attempted this because it would have been awesome to see two "top" monks side by side with drastically different itemization. I know plenty of monks across the game and they know what the real results are. Is 5k different dps really worth it? No. Who cares when is dex/str on a dps epeen. If youre night in night out competing neck and neck with somene, sure take dex. If you don't care, pick whatever. If you're looking for grouping benefits, take dex unless you box/always group with a tank then pick whatever.
I don't see this as a debate. Maybe some do, but I'm not here to help just me or other top monks out there. This is for the pursuit of knowledge, and for any upcoming and future monks out there who don't know whether to get AGI or STR or DEX etc, or what skills to use. Knowing how things work and getting them posted for future generations of monks will make EQ a better place for everyone. I know when I started back playing, it was difficult to find info out there, and much of it was old, outdated, or just plain wrong (like saying 1st spire increases thunderfoot procs). I just feel better providing knowledge for those who do want it and may utilize it. And for those people who DO like to min/max, if we can figure out a little more about how things work, even if it makes no discernible difference, we've become better players, and some of us like that. Of course skill trumps, but skill+knowledge is even better. Some people don't care if it's only a 1% difference, but if there is a clear answer out there and we know it, why not? Some people just like to be the best they can be. Imagine having a full raid of people min/maxing, that's what top guilds in WoW do, and it makes a difference, but that's a more competitive game, so another argument for another time. But yeah, it seems that for the most part, HDEX/HSTR doesn't matter too much. I don't see a clear winner yet, but i'm not done parsing and testing. Will be posting more info in the coming days. Thanks.
Let me know if you'd like me to do any parses and what you'd want me to test. I'm itimized as full dex monk. Glad to help out if I can. And as Zare pointed out skill + knowledge is the winning combo. Thanks to all those of you who have been contributing a ton with parses and tests thus far to be able to et an idea of some of how some skills are or aren't interacting in ways we had believed to be true.
if 25 hdex = 1% additional chance to block or ripo then isn't hdex always the best choice until hstr gets some massive boost that makes the dps difference between the two tangible and significant? i'm not 17 jacked up on adderall and red bull, so there are times when my impen/shaded/flop skills are lacking and i actually take a round of damage. wouldn't the chance (i chose that word carefully) to avoid all damage be something to pursue? i'm not trying to be snarky or passive aggressive. this was how the benefits of hdex were explained to me. and it made sense. but i'm good looking and not smart, so if anyone else has any thoughts, i'd listen!
my post was not bad by any means my friend. There is nothing wrong with a friendly debate, and just to clarify, it is somewhat of a debate yes when 2 topics are spoken upon as to what the end results are of said topics, debates arent always ugly such as politics, a debate is when there is a variance of opinion or results. Like I said, in everything I ve seen, done and friendly parse results here, the results are going to be marginal, rng will sometimes occur as to crits, procs etc, and imo .....in the end the winning combo is going to be skill and knowledge. AND group makeup
Is it? I've been away from EQ a while, so just wondering where you are getting these numbers. And yeah, back in PoP era I was all about AC/HP and survivablility because I was a raid puller in a time when pulling was important. Now i'm about damage. In a raid, if I take damage/die, it's usually because A. I up, or B. someone else up. it's kind of funny in Stem the Tide when my whole group is dying and i'm just chugging along mending up my DoT dmg. Monks still have some of the best survability regardless of how we aug. Though in TBM raiding, most of my deaths, when I die, are when main tank dies and i'm next on aggro list and get 1 rounded, insta death. I'll take damage over some survability, up to a point, but I don't care enough to get ALL str or ALL dex. I just use what I got, which is kind of a mix. But I think we've found HDEX isn't as good as it was thought to be. I'm still experimenting with both, though.
maybe? my sources are posts from sk math nerds at evilgamer and a few hits from these forums courtesy of google. i could be totally wrong and/or doing math derpstyle and putting too much value the defensive bonus(i). have we? i thought savager's parse was telling. i understand there are lots of variables a dummy parse can't mimic, but the zerker math nerds have been lauding the benefits of hdex for crit rate for years. again, i'm not trying to be a poopstain about anything or throw stones from my white tower. i just thought i'd bring up the defensive benefits of dex (if it's real and/or parseable and/or relevant on raid targets with absurd hstrikethrough) given that the difference between hstr and hdex is very meh.
