I've been chatting with various monks from various servers, raid forces, and experience levels recently. Mostly about parse numbers and burn orders. While I'm not the best monk out there, I've been able to be in the top 5 for competitive parses and I'd like to share my thoughts on raid burns. If there's something that's incorrect, inefficient, or ineffective, please post a correction or your thoughts. I know there is a steep learning curve for top end DPS for a monk, and hopefully discussing burns can push up our overall average. This is mainly focusing on raid performance, but can be applied to group formats as well. It seems a lot of burn orders are oriented around Crane Stance. Folks are piling up abilities just to amp up a single (double) kick. While it is pretty satisfying to land a million+ dmg hit, you end up with nothing to fall back on for the rest of the fight. But there's more to being a monk than landing a massive kick every 5 minutes. A common theme I've encountered has been starting with Ironfist + Dicho + Dragon + (Focused) Destructive Force + Zan Fi + Infusion + Spire + Glyph + Crane. Since this is at the start of a burn, most groups would have ADPS running as well - shaman + bard epics, fury, war cry, cheetah, and whatever else I can't recall. There is plenty of potential coming in from the ADPS that should be paired well with an individual burn. By the time that Ironfist runs out, most of the ADPS has run out too. Now you're left with low-to-no ADPS, and low-to-no abilities to pair with the rest of your discs. Some folks have been running a second heavy disc (Speed Focus, typically) immediately after Ironfist to try and catch the leftover ADPS. Before the end of that disc, almost all ADPS will be gone and you're running a disc by itself. There are plenty of lulls during events: low ADPS, lower tiered discs, low endurance, and even event mechanics like HP locking or scripting. Just like the desire to pair crane stance with something that is going to amp up its damage, you need to pair the event lulls with your lulls. There absolutely will be parts in the event that you won't have a disc running - so opt to no disc during a part of the event where nothing else is running, even if you have these discs / abilities ready. This is one of the toughest things to do, since you probably want to be burning everything you've got as soon as it refreshes. This means don't pop a disc when ADPS has faded (or is about to). Don't pop a disc just as a mob is going to HP lock. Don't use an ability that pairs well with another that isn't quite ready yet (to a point). In my personal burns, I typically start off with Heel + Dicho + 2nd Spire (I've heard 1st is good too, but I haven't tested that myself). I time that with the bard and shaman epics, and hopefully cheetah. Once I've got doomwalkers on, I'll drop crane stance (which will be amped up by ADPS). Following that is a lull, so I'll pair that with either Eye of the Storm or Earthforce (which does add some DPS). By the time that fades, the epics should be ready and my next part is going to be Speed + Infusion + Glyph (and / or dicho, if it's up). Next is a lull, so either Eye or Earthforce (or one after the other). Next ramp up will be Ironfist + dicho (if up) + Dragon + Crane (hey, it's back up and paired well!). Lull, Eye or Earthforce. Ramp up, Terrorpalm. Lull, Eye or Earthforce. Hopefully the end of the event now, since I'm typically out of discs. I know of some monks using Speed first and Heel second and get some nice parses. I personally haven't done any parses to compare the two. So now instead of running discs in order (Heel > Speed > Ironfist > Terrorpalm > Eye > Earthforce) for a string of 6, you now have (Heel > Eye > Speed > Earthforce > Eye > Ironfist > Earthforce > Terrorpalm > Earthforce > Eye > Earthforce) a string of 11 or more. And each disc is being paired with an ability or two, instead of front-loading all of them. Overall, more damage when looking at the event as a whole. For an event with trash at the start, like Droga, I'll usually start with something like Earthforce > Eye > Earthforce > Terrorpalm on High Priest, then carry on to heavier discs when the named (and ADPS!) is active. There are some abilities which pair quite nicely with discs, and others that don't pair well at all: Dicho adds damage per hit, so it pairs well with something that will increase the number of hits per second. Heel and Speed both do this and should be paired as often as possible. Ironfist, Terrorpalm, Eye, Earthforce all add damage per hit, and you won't gain any DPS pairing dicho with these as you would if you just ran dicho by itself (overall damage increases, but the GAIN remains the same). Use dicho as often as it's up after you've used it on Speed / Heel. Glyph acts the same as dicho in that it adds damage per hit, so pair it with something that adds hits per second (Speed, Heel) Crane likes having a damage modifier, and the current champ is Ironfist. Second would be Eye, third is Earthforce. Use Crane as often as it's up - don't save it to pair, since it'll be up again shortly. Pairing with ADPS is a good option as well if you don't have a disc to pair it with. Infusion pairs really well with Speed. Otherwise, use it as it's up. This does not stack with one of the bard abilities (the name of which escapes me at the moment. It's the one that lights your fists on fire). Make sure you use this when your bard isn't using their ability, or you're wasting their ADPS - use it during a bard lull. Zan Fi has a long duration, and its refresh timer is roughly 30 seconds longer than the duration. Just use this all the time instead of trying to pair it with something (I have this on my mash key to make sure it's always used). Five point palm you should use as often as it's up. Pair it with Silent Strikes if you're worried about ganking aggro. Breastplate click shouldn't be used DURING a burn - use it PRIOR to a burn, or during a lull. 0.2 second casting time will cost you 20% of your current DPS, and it will only add 50k (?) damage. With a 250k burn, you're taking away 50k damage while adding 50k damage. If you're casting it at above 250k dps, you're losing damage. Cast it at the start of an event, and during a lull in the middle and you should be ok. Keep this in mind for any casting you do during an event.
Thank you for taking the time to post this. I only get to play my monk once a week or once every two weeks and like to stay as current as possible.
Thrillho is spot on. What also makes breaking up burns more effective is the change a few patches ago that enabled drunken and breather to be used while a discs is active. It would be nice if they would make some of our abilities that are amplified by the 100's of aa's spent to focus them stack with abilities that are on the "mash" keys.
First off, great job Thrillho. I have much to add to this and a few mistakes to change I'd say but still a great base for newer monks. I don't have time to type it all out now but I'll chime in here soon if I can.
I read this initially and it was a bit overwhelming, but coming back later after thinking about it a bit, it makes good sense. Since I don't raid, the parts about lulls and reusing some abilities didn't fit well with my experiences. Mostly I burn on named fights in EoK group content, so one burn cycle is enough unless the group is dead and I need to drop the mob before they time out and take their mercs with them to their bind points. But I usually split my abilities up so I can use one good burn and still have another ready when needed. From previous advice I received, have been pairing FDF with SF as my heaviest burn. My secondary involves IoT, Dicho, and 2nd Spire but I recently realized that I'm not pairing that with an active disc. Since I wasn't pairing Heel with anything, it was just my 3rd burn option by itself. It might make more sense to spread things around. Looking at some of your combinations, I'm thinking: 1st = FDF + SF 2nd = Dicho + 2nd Spire + Heel 3rd = IoT + Ironfist or Terrorpalm These could be used all in a row if needed, or more likely 3 fights in a row. The 3rd is mostly a leftovers situation, I don't think there is any synergy benefit to those abilities being used together, but I will have to check. Any thoughts on this?
Never fire Terrorpalm with IoT. It's a complete waste of IoT. You're better off using IoT with Speed Focus
1. Adding strikes + adding strikes. It needs something that will add damage per strike - dicho, IoT, or glyph would be good choices. 2. I use this combination often. 3. You're not getting much on this one. IoT pairs really well with Speed, since it adds damage per melee attack. It also pairs well with FDF / DF. If all abilities that add extra hits are down, use IoT with anything, or even by itself. The gain will be the same regardless. Try Terror + FDF / DF, or Ironfist + Crane.
1. Am I missing something on Speed Focus discipline? Everything I've seen says it lowers the delay of the weapon similar to a haste spell. FDF is supposed to give a second hit for every main hand hit. My understanding going into this is that FDF+SF with a 2hb is a really strong burn. SF should give more main hand hits and FDF adds a second hit for each one of those. 2. Yes, I shamelessly stole it. It's a good combination. 3. I'll look at Ironfist + Crane, could probably add Dragon Punch in there too because I'm not using it in any of the other burns at this time.
it's missing a melee damage boost, with SF and FDF you're just doing more hits. you'll get better results if you tag IoT and maybe Dicho onto it
Ahh, I see now, thanks. So it's not that FDF+SF isn't a good combo, it's that it could be better by shuffling things around a bit. 1st = FDF + IoT + SF 2nd = Dicho + 2nd Spire + Heel I'll have to see what's left for a possible 3rd burn, although I don't need that as badly, just trying to find all the possibly synergies I can for what I have.
I seem to be following thrill's post to a T but am not pulling the numbers I should be. What variables are there that would affect this? I'm pairing discs properly and lining up burns with adps via gina but still come up short. I'm using crush and the rest of our monks run with sotdragoon. Variables I'm considering that may be affecting dps are swapping to assist on adds + CPU performance, also lack of 10% tbm eyes. Any veteran guys care to discuss?
Max AA, full raid buffs, full eok raid gear (minus weapon but using chase version) also should note I'm in a full adps group bst bard shm ranger adps
Well, moving to adds if they are far away instead of close would drop a bit - that depends on how your guild does the events and such. I wouldn't worry about matching 1:1 since you would have to basically have the same exact conditions, which are not very likely since guilds do a lot of things differently. As long as you are in general ballpark you should be fine. A closer comparison would be other Monks in your guild, but even then groups wont be equal with equal skill most likely, and they probably wont be synced the same and such.
Could be a lot of things out of your control. Lag can cripple you since you have to pound that keyboard a million times a raid. You have full support, but are they actually functioning properly? Their play will greatly impact your results. If the Shaman/Bard/Ranger slack and don't get those clicks in when available you've only extended the amount of dead time. Are you able to use Alliance consistantly as well? That's 2.4 million dmg and can change the parse at the end significantly. Only 2 monks show up to my raids these days, so I've lost that and it's noticeable. I despise Alliance for that reason. But that's a whole other issue, since many DPS can proc it with only 2 classes it should be reworked to allow only 2 monks to proc it. Pretty much everything Thrillo put up there is great advice, but I do change around Heel and Speed+DF depending on the event. That's really going to depend on your guild strat. In EoK the only event I unload Iron+Crane and click it off to go into Heel is Droga. Everything else is more an endurance fight and better to space it out to time it up with Epic's. I am typically between 7th to 12th depending on who shows up, the support I get and the raid involved. Necro's, Berserkers and most Wizards rule the parse these days so if you're losing to them then it may just be that you've got very good players in those classes. You can always post or PM a combined Droga, Prince, Queen or Ancient Dragon parse and it'd be easy to see if your #'s are low or if you are just getting beat because of limitations to the Monk class.
Coming up short compared to what? Potential variables: Heroics - hDex is a big one, and I've maxed mine out (1665). There are a few tweaks I could make gear-wise to up this a bit, but the largest one would be to max out the Artisan's Prize (currently at 68%). Going with "well rounded" split of hDex / hAgil / hStr seems to lower overall DPS. I base this on anecdotal evidence only - I have yet to see someone do parse comparisons between the various heroic combinations, and I have no desire to. Lag / Performance - You'd know if you had computer performance issues. I had to turn off all Others in my filters because I wasn't able to write the log for 54 people at a time and would basically freeze up when burns started. Thank you, Windows 10, for your unwelcome update. There are a few methods for dealing with this, unfortunately none but the filter worked for me. Turn off corpses (/hidecorpse always). Turn off names (/showname off). Add switching - The faster you switch targets, the faster you start dealing out damage. Play in third person so you know where each mob is and can move there quickly. Have an assist key set up - I have my ETW1 set to Raid Assist 1 Target, and have E bound to ETW1. I have F set to cycle through mobs. Others have a /assist main hotkey set up. Whatever works for you. If you're waiting for a mob to come to camp simply because the MA has it targeted, you're (probably) wrong. Wait for it to get to where it's supposed to be, then peel off and attack. Queen is probably the only raid I'll chase a mob down instead of waiting for it to run to camp, only because the Queen is locked. Parse padding - Plenty of mobs lock HP. Plenty of folks keep fighting it as their damage still registers on the parse. Prince, Queen, and the Dragon come to mind for parse padding. Your peers might just be showing off. You're not coming up short, they're just wasting their endurance / abilities / discs. Event duration - The longer it takes, the lower your DPS is going to be. Damage divided by seconds. The larger the seconds is, the smaller your overall DPS. I've seen my parse in the 900k range before and thought "wow, I'm going to smash the top 3 tonight" only for the rest of the force to face-roll the keyboard and extend the fight out. My burn fades and I'm left with a secondary. If I had ended in my primary I would've been fine. Different raid forces have different DPS. The actual numbers - Don't look at DPS compared to others, as the duration they're parsing might be different than yours. I have my parse set up to trim anything after something like 20 seconds of mob inactivity. So if I start again at 21 seconds, it starts as a new fight and when I combine fights I get a shorter duration overall (and higher DPS as a result). I find this to be more accurate, but others prefer the total time. In any case, look at total damage done. 150mil dmg, not 300k DPS. When comparing the other monks in my raid force, I look at total damage per event. I never look at the DPS number. Learn the events - I know every event we do and how we do it. I could go to another raid force and not perform as well simply because I don't know how they do it. I know exactly when to burn, exactly when to call for ADPS, exactly when the lulls are. I know when the adds pop. I know where they come from. I know how long it will take for them to get to the camp. I know where they're supposed to be tanked. Learn all of that and you'll be able to line your abilities up. Talk to others - If you're being beat by other monks, ask them what they're doing. That was the main goal of this thread - to open up a discussion between monks about what we do. We're so quiet on what we do. Experiment - Try new burn orders and see what works for you. Took me a while to figure out the exact order for my burns on each event, and I'm still fine-tuning them.
Spitballing - rather than a proc based thing, monk Alliance could have been pure hit counter, for skillattack hits (FK/etc)? Such that 2 monks can get it done if the other one is disced up with Heel or gets lucky on Master Wu, but takes 3 to be reliable outside discs. That would make it match the other Alliances
