Discussion in 'Tanks' started by sojero, May 3, 2013.

  1. Battleaxe Augur

    Well as long as the problem is manageable :)

    Responding to your point, but not "lecturing", since I've seen previous analysis by you.

    Survival computation might not seem all that difficult, but people have worked on it.


    Yoda from TSW made a run at AC vs. HP effects on survivability. I gave up on following the discussion on day 2. An equally gifted mathematician/statistician worked with him each reviewing the other's work. While I'm sure they got a lot of traction on some facets of the problem, iIrc they got hung up on determining a mob's Attack. They both work on it on and off for months before discussion and informal progress reports ceased.

    So, we're left with quick and dirty heuristic solutions. Gear your character up and see how you like 1AC=4HP and use and Elemental Orb, Then try 1AC=10HP and a Metal Orb....

    heal=mitigation isn't any different. Tank some content not using a shield but using an extra heal merc. Watch how a Paladin performs on your weekly raids as the MT. Compare classes MTing in raids, groups, and soloing.

    Opinion is nice, acquiring a large body of results is nicer - especially when the problem is too massive to solve in the formal scientific way. Semantics - words, just words.
  2. Lanthor Elder

    I dont disagree.

    Mobs have a "Damage per second" DPS (which is a factor resulting from mob potential vs. tank potential). Every healing class has a peak Healing Per Second (HPS). There is a simple and stable correlation that can be made based on these two numbers alone in gameplay.

    My personal event analysis has always been something along the below (rough formula).

    Avoidance + Mitigation = DPS received (I factor min max and look at spike DPS to determine if one rounding is possible, and then I look at 6 second rolling DPS to determine a comfort zone on healing demand). In the event I can't be one rounded then it all comes down to HPS which must be >= mob DPS = Result Surviability.

    At this point I know with in a narrow window what the tank healing requierments are.

    When Im setting up raids now days im factoring a perfect cleric at about 10,000HPS. So if a mob is rolling a 6 second 40k DPS max then im looking for 4 perfect clerics. It may come as no suprise to many that I factor a good paladin at 10,000HPS if they are grouped with the tanks receiving the factored for DPS. As my rule of thumb, I count a shaman as half a cleric due to their other roles (they often surpass). I rarely have druids in my main tank teams, but they are relatively close to clerics in terms of raw HPS, offhand I would say 8,000HPS (good twincasters will surpass in most accounts).

    Really though surviabilty is almost perfectly mathmatical, but really not needed. Theory craft alone allows raid leaders to successfully prepare groups on a daily basis. I suspect half of them dont even need to look at the numbers, and quite franky I don't most of the time. In fact, I have not had to be a healing math nerd since we were implimenting perfect light heal rotations to beat Tacvi.

    At any rate surviability could be made into science if someone had the time, but as Yoda ran into, it is a science that must be based on a per mob per event basis. You can't arm chair these things without getting your hands dirty.
  3. Lanthor Elder

    We should ask Gamanern to create a formula based on a players mitigation results checked to a specific mobs DPS, factoring their personal heals per second to result in a surviability factor.

    Then tanks would be able to post out a simple surviability factor on a 1-10 scale. Obviously we know how that would turn out lol. It would actually be a very practical figure that could be checked against most any mob. Players could use to to compare personal surviability results and see on the fly what variations of tools resulted in the best surviability potential.
  4. sojero One hit wonder

    I also box a cleric, and they have things like shinning bastion that are mitigation. Most of the time the main tank has 4-6 healers healing them and they stay at almost max health, and if the round comes and they are at 100% health, then nothing at that point healing wise is going to help them mitigate the inc dmg, but a rune, much like the ones wars just got with sof release, will help.

    Anything that does something even .000000000000000000001 after the hit lands is reactionary (you are reacting to the hit that just happened), you can be "preemptive" in timing of it, but it is still reactive to the hit. I guess what I'm wanting to do is show people, especially those not at the top end that their guilds are already saturated in gear, that when progressing up MITIGATION plays a huge role and Wars are still king in that. I buff out to a max of 127k and 11k ac. I have been one rounded by NTOV dragons, and a perfect example is CC terror. I can not self heal on that when its in terror form at all, pallies can, but not SK. But that does not change the fact that a PR heal, HOT or any other is still an after the face, same with pally heals and SK taps.

    In the group game, I don't know of anything that can one round a knight or war in current group gear, so there is where the self healing really does play a huge role. In a non tank group sk and pal shine because they are heal themselves so much, where I agree wars have an issue, but that is a problem with healers not the tank itself. Anything that a pal or sk could self heal though you are just as good as having another healer there. Anything a sk or pal cant do because of one rounding another healer isn't going to do anything to help.

    I mainly want people to understand that there are different viewpoints on mitigation depending on where you are in the game. For those at the top that have the gear that cannot be one rounded they have a different view than those that are still progressing and can be, to them the extra 10% that a war has is a big deal.
  5. Lanthor Elder

    So have lots of warriors.

    One rounders are all part of the equation for sure. Healing as a factor in survivability ALL comes down to the general notion that the tank will avoid MOST one rounders.

    I think as so many pointed out, even in below average gear knights "can" avoid the one round situation in "most" instances that warriors do in the same setting. This is more part of game design than anything. There was a period in time where boss mobs simply hit a lot harder, and that was the major challenge. Now things are more mechanical and script based.
  6. Lanthor Elder

    For example: T3 ROF Dispelling the Shadow - Luclin MT rotation

    **I should add these two are close in gear levels. Mix of VOAT4 and T1/T2 ROF. We are 2-3 raid night a week DKP guild, so we are on the lower end of tank gear as it were for being done with T3.

    Warrior --- Total damage: 3922858 --- Avg hit: 16143 --- Swings: 385 --- Defended: 22 (5.7%) --- Hit: 243 (63.1%) --- Missed: 120 (31.2%) --- Accuracy: 66.9% --- Dodged: 0 (0%) --- Parried: 15 (3.9%) --- Blocked: 0 (0%) --- Riposted: 6 (1.6%) --- Absorbed: 1 (0.3%)

    Warrior max hit 34913

    Paladin --- Total damage: 3107121 --- Avg hit: 16795 --- Swings: 318 --- Defended: 70 (22%) --- Hit: 185 (58.2%) --- Missed: 63 (19.8%) --- Accuracy: 74.6% --- Dodged: 10 (3.8%) --- Parried: 14 (4.8%) --- Blocked: 26 (8.2%) --- Riposted: 16 (5.8%) --- Absorbed: 4 (1.3%)

    Paladin max hit 31188
  7. Khat_Nip Meow

    What a predictable direction this thread has devolved to. Absolutely ridiculous.

    To answer the OPs question, healing does not equal mitigation. Period. End of story. There's your true answer. Thread can be closed.
    Spin it differently however else you like but it will never be true.

    If one had little grasp of the English language or were otherwise mentally deficient in some way I could appreciate they might not fully understand the meaning of a word but for all intents and purposes and in the context of this discussion it's pretty straightforward.

    Healing does not equal mitigation.

    "Good thing that car repair mitigated some of that damage while that accident was happening."
    "Thankfully this aspirin I took mitigated some of that hour-long headache I had before taking it."
    "By using less CFCs now we mitigated the damage to the Ozone at the time that we damaged it."

    None of those are, nor can be true, just as healing = mitigation isn't true.

    Who knows why but you brought up Einstein's Special Relativity in the other thread but if you want to talk physics I'd posit that your idea of healing=mitigation violates causality in the spirit and true definition of mitigation so maybe you need to read a dictionary or take a class or something.

    You're free to put a reasonable word at the end of, "Healing = " but mitigation isn't the right one to use.
    I understand what you're getting at but truthfully 'mitigation' is not the right word; you simply need to pick something else. Something that isn't a synonym to 'mitigation'.
  8. Battleaxe Augur

    Well if you figured it out, anyone could and I imagine a lot have.

    Tanking = aggro + survivability
    Survivability = avoidance + mitigation + self-healing

    Not the same? True. One can't increase survivability and have RNG taunt for aggro and expect good results. Just as one can't have good mitigation and bind wound for combat self healing (the unaddressed Warrior situation)

    or the other case - the one where the knights had their complaints addressed
    You can't have good combat self-healing and almost no at-will burst mitigation and expect good results. However if you have good combat self-healing and good mitigation
    healing = mitigation

    Glad you understand it. With the SK posting healing != mitigation in order to make a political point that's untrue I was afraid I'd have to school more people. Tomorrow I'm covering floccinaucinihilipilification, but I see from your post you're a master.

    Tanking = aggro + survivability
    Survivability = mitigation + self-healing
  9. Enizen Elder

    Shouldn't it be

    Survivability = mitigation + healing (self or otherwise)
  10. Soleran Journeyman

    Hilarious and wrong once again.

    Stick to survivability, you would get support with that, as opposed to your constant battle of words. As it stands now, you just appear to troll while giving dissertations as to why you think what you do. Which is wrong no matter how many words you use to describe it.
  11. Coruth Augur

    Not in this context because you can't control as the Tank when someone else is healing you/paying attention.

    You can as a Knight Tank, control your own Self-Healing
  12. Coruth Augur

    Dude, not to make personal attacks... but at least if you want to argue word choices don't make your own examples up that don't work.

    I've said that very line to my wife. Pounding Headache. Taking asprin. Reduced, but not healed the headache. Yeah the asprin mitigated my headache. ((yes too much EQ junkie I use this word in day to day life))

    You can quote dictionaries all you want. The word Mitigate means "To reduce" or "to make less severe." And yes the word healing can apply the same way.

    The two words can be used SOMETIMES as synonyms.
    The two words in EQ can be used SOMETIMES as synonyms. (Because they are both part of survival and outside of 1 shot can end in same exact results)

    Any way you cut it, with one shots out of the picture in this Expansion the "Mitigation Edge" Warriors recieve is worth less than the Self-Healing Edge Knights recieve.
  13. Soleran Journeyman

    So you're saying mitigation has a different meaning for Knights compared to Warriors.........OIC.
  14. Coruth Augur

    Not at all.

    1) In context, of how a Tank keeps themselves alive (without outside healing) mitigation and self-healing are related. ((Not always synonyms but sometimes they are))

    2) In context, of how much outside healing a Tank needs to survive, mitigation and self-healing are related ((Again not always synonyms but sometimes are))

    As a priest, how hard you THE TANK, are to keep alive depends on both mitigation & Self healing
  15. Enizen Elder

    Only to an extent, I cant control procs, which accounts for a large amount of my self healing.
  16. Battleaxe Augur

    It's good that people also realize that while regen, procs, etc. affect survivability there's versatility to be found in at-will abilities.

    Pray for a proc in one hand and use a larger at-will wound recovery ability in the other hand and see which pulls you back from the precipice more often.
  17. Enizen Elder

    If I am that close I am going to use my once every 36 min ability, not some tap I hope will proc and save me.
  18. Coruth Augur

    Well Luck is a factor of the game, and it's even a factor for always on Mitigation.

    If a warrior gets hit for say min 6 times of 10k and has 10% edge. It only saved him 6k
    Where if a warrior gets hit for Max of 30k and has 10k edge. It saved him 18k

    Meanwhile, Luck for a Knight proc, or Knight Crit on a Tap/Heal also means one round it might only heal 6k but another might heal 18k or even 50k or whatever.

    Random is Random. When most things are compared thier over time, and longer parses and averages are compared to averages.
  19. Battleaxe Augur

    Hehe. I wish I turned purple and walked down that white corridor towards the bright horizon only once every 36 minutes. Must be nice.
  20. Kamea Augur

    If the devs said, "We'll give you a mend or a heal proc, you pick," I'd choose the heal proc any day of the week. A minor boost on that can be sustained through multiple fights is a lot important than a single "Oh s**t!" handle we could grab to heal from 1-2 rounds once every 10-60 minutes (the projection of how long the reuse time on this hypothetical ability would probably be.)

    Obviously Warlord's Tenacity reuse time needs to be dramatically reduced, but that's a separate issue.