Discussion in 'Tanks' started by sojero, May 3, 2013.

  1. Morgoth Elder

    Hijack or no...

    Does not change the fact that the Warrior class is quickly is being assigned to the ash heap of history. When guild leaders of the top guilds will only recruit Paladins, that in and of itself, is the proof of the pudding.

    I don't wish to see the other tank classes nerfed in any way. The Warrior class does, however, need a quick dose of medicine before the patient is truly dead.
    Elricvonclief likes this.
  2. Coruth Augur

    It's funny, when you get into grammar police.

    True or False:
    Self Healing mitigates the chances of a Shadowknight dying.
    Self Healing mitigates the depths of a tanks wounds.

    For me Self-Healing = Mitigation as long as 1 Rounding is not possible.

    When 1 Rounding is possible, the two divirge and become different.
  3. Battleaxe Augur

    Which doesn't change the fact that from a functional standpoint healing and mitigation can produce the same net HP bar result.

    There's no need to point out they aren't synonyms. I think most of us know that. We even know what the EQ formal definitions are. I think that's covered in the original manual. <- no point to the thread at all.

    However if the propaganda point is being made (and it clearly is by some) that healing is not mitigation by another is.

    Support your useful posters and don't argue semantics, discuss the big picture way things work in game.

    In game if I mitigate 10K HP's and don't lose them and you don't mitigate 10K's but heal them that's 10K HPs neither of us are missing.
  4. Khat_Nip Meow

    You can keep saying that until you're blue in the face but it won't make it true, ever.

    Healing is not mitigation. You don't get to make up your own definitions for words whenever you feel like it.

    If you are in a car wreck and take it in to get fixed the repairs after-the-fact didn't mitigate one iota of the initial damage done to it.
    Tegila and Enizen like this.
  5. BoomWalker Augur

    Druids and Shaman's need in combat rez...90% or 96%...this would help mitigate deaths to tanks because clerics and pallys would be able to keep healing without stopping to rez....

    So lets debate the need for druids and shaman's to have in combat rez...90% or 96%..because it is a problem.

    Of course it has NOTHING directly to do with this thread...but you know...hijack or no...this is a serious issue that needs to be discussed in the wrong the wrong way ...just to get this thread shut down.

    FOCUS on the thread TOPIC....stop tossing the noise into this discussion.
  6. Battleaxe Augur

    You can say anything you want to say until you are blue in the face but I've read SK's post Our healing is not extra. We need it to offset mitigation Warriors have that we do not.

    Are they synonyms? No

    But if one thing can stand in for another certainly there is some form of exchange equivalence.

    Healing = mitigation
    1AC = 5HP's

    In both cases asserting that in some kind of other currency (Survivability in this case) there is an exchange rate where we all understand '=' does not mean either that they are synonyms nor precisely equal in value. Something readily apparent in the "Healing=mitigation" case where quantities are never provided.

    Given this point of view, I disagree with Sojero - not in formal defintion but in practice.

    If a player is at 25K HPs and I heal him for 26KHP's just before an AE does 50K of damage to him did I not front load him in anticipation of future damage. I say yes. In fact I argue that currently Clerics fill player HP buffers in anticipation of damage to come. If they don't die and their HP's are returned to max it's in effect a rune.

    Not reactionary but in fact anticipatory.

    We all have opinions and mine is if it walks a lot like a duck and quacks a lot like a duck it'll do until a duck comes along.
  7. Coruth Augur

    You know the funniest part of this thread is that everyone takes for Granted that Mitigation and HPS are related.

    Every single person I know who plays EQ has some formula in their head where they judge Augs 1 AC = 15 (it does vary by class) hps

    AC = Mitigation

    But yet, they argue and argue that a heal that gives you Hps is not related too Mitigation

    Again, it is important to keep in mind 2 differences: Self Healing is tank controlled, and not healer dependant. And Self-Healing is inferior to damage prevention if you are able to be 1 rounded. Which doesn't apply in ROF
  8. Battleaxe Augur

    Cleric casts a nice HoT on you. <- anticipatory/front loaded
    You take damage.
    Tick, heal <- The HoT mitigates some of the damage you took, after the fact

    I think the quote above is on shaky ground, while the EQ formal definition isn't.

    The part that amuses me is the people easily grasp that the '=' operand in

    is not a mathematical "=" subject to truth or falsity but rather an assertion that we can convert a unit of one into the other even if we don't know the correct rate of exchange or if it varies..

    but don't want to extend the same to

    not realizing that in both cases "=" doesn't mean synonym or rigid mathematical '=' but more of a "is worth" form as in "A bird in the hand = 2 * birds in the bush." Just because you can't go into the First National Cat Bank and cash in your birds in the bush doesn't mean that we don't all know what is meant.

    I don't think anyone knows what x is really equal to.

    xhealing=ymitigation or x and y in this case.

    But what they imply is readily discernible.
  9. Crystilla Augur

    (Trying not to derail this thread but to back up what Battleaxe is saying ... Sojero, today's cleric (if they're using every ability they have access to), definitely has a few ways to "proactively plan" for incomming damage on the tank. There are several things we can cast (AA and spell wise). We haven't been pure reactionary for many years but less so now.)
  10. Enizen Elder


    1: to cause to become less harsh or hostile :

    2: to make less severe or painful :alleviate

    a : to make sound or whole <heal a wound>
    b : to restore to health

    From Merriam Webster, yeah they *look* similar if you aren't paying attention, but no they are 2 different things.
  11. Coruth Augur

    Dude, I guess you don't like to read. Look at definition 2 of mitigate. To make less severe or painful. To allieviate. Both of those apply to self healing

    Self Healing makeS less severe or painful the wounds I took

    Self Healing alleviate my wounds
    Again, no one is saying the 2 things are exactly the same.
    People are saying once you are out of 1-shot range, they are functionally the same

    Now you can quote a dictionary if you want, but actually write a sectance using those defintions.
    Notice I cut and paste your own dictionary defintion into it.

    Your words dude. Tomato meet Tamato
  12. Enizen Elder

    Self healing does not mean I took less dmg, (which would be mitigating said dmg), or make said dmg less severe. It DOES mean I have a chance to recover more quickly from said dmg (notice the word CHANCE).

    Heal means to restore to health (one assumes we mean 100%), but that doesn't mean I cant be hit just as hard as before.

    And as far as people saying they aren't you just said they are functionally the same, they are not. It's a fine line, but no they are not the same.
  13. Battleaxe Augur

    A heal does not make the damage inflicted on you less severe? Let me inspect the cut on my finger that I treated with A&D ointment. Yep, the treatment has made the damage less severe.

    (healing can't be anticipatory - refuted although everyone is entitled to their opinion)
    (naming = defining - refuted although everyone is entitled to their opinion

    leaving utilitarianism:
    "And as far as people saying they aren't you just said they are functionally the same, they are not. It's a fine line, but no they are not the same."

    If it walks a lot like a duck and quacks a lot like a duck it'll do until a duck comes along.
  14. Deckerd Smeckerd Augur

    Well he asked how we look at it in the context of the game.

    I look it at it in this order.

    1. Raw Damage
    2. Mitigation of raw damage (by shielding, ac, runes, etc)
    3. HP adjustment (if any)

    Those all happen in a nanosecond.

    Then come

    4. Player reaction (healing, fleeing, heroic last stand to the death, etc.)

    You could say by healing you are mitigating the damage. That's fine.

    So I would say there is mitigation which lowers HP loss. And there is mitigation that lowers the amount of damage already taken (healing). So an enchanter mitigates the damage before it is taken with runes while a healer mitigates the damage after it is taken.

    So if I were a warrior fighting a blue con and I have 20000 hp I can mitigate some damage through my skills, gear, innate resistance to damage, so the mob has to do, say, 30000 in raw damage against me to win. If I am a Paladin, I can mitigate with skills and gear and the mob has to do, say 25000, in raw damage to kill me. But I can also mitigate damage after it is done with healing. I can convert my mana to HP and effectively increase the number of HP damage that the mob has to do to say, 50000 raw damage. Also a Paladin can stun some mobs. That is also mitigation. So if I can decrease the number of swings a mob can do against me with stuns by 10% then that also should be factored.
    BoomWalker likes this.
  15. BoomWalker Augur

    Mitigation restoreS to health the wounds I took

    Mitigation makes sound or whole the wounds I took

    "Now you can quote a dictionary if you want, but actually write a sectance using those defintions.
    Notice I cut and paste your own dictionary defintion into it."

    Using the definition of heal the sentences don't seem to make as much that suppose to happen?

    If mitigation = self-healing/healing...shouldn't the definitions make sense in both cases?

    The OP was asking for opinions...and there are those with different opinions. The terms are distracting from the OP but...that is what tanks seem to do...
  16. Lanthor Elder

    Semantic debates are silly. I prefer the concept of survivability as a mathematical formula based off all of the factors herein.

    I'm sure back when development actually cared about balance they had a nice mathematical formula for it all. DI/DB/avoidance/mitigation/ac/hp/regen/self recovery/other play nice recovery gains/ etc. Now days, based on the results, I speculate they just shoot from the hip, and because they don't play the game regularly enough they miss a lot. Not to mention situation like....left hand (spells) and right hand (AA) don't always think things through together.

    As a side note runes are obviously mitigation, but factor in EQ in a lot of ways as healing /shrug. Maybe that's the missing link where both sides of this debate can find some common ground. I can reconcile there.
  17. BoomWalker Augur

    Good post...and your point would apply to slows as well...since those help amount of incoming damage...sadly...heals do nothing to the incoming damage...

    And resting after a fight is over would also seem to incoming damage just like heals do...since the toon lived...and it is all about living...

    Still, if others want to redefine mitigation to mean surviving incoming damage to the point that heals and OOC resting apply to the meaning of mitigation...that is fine as an opinion.
  18. BoomWalker Augur

    A discussion on survivability and how mitigating incoming damage and healing/self-healing impact it would seem a great topic to discuss.

    Arguing that "equal to" and "equivalence" are the same thing is indeed a silly semantic much as this semantic debate is silly.
  19. Coruth Augur

    Your way out of date man, on healing. your stuck thinking of healing as "Reactive"

    My heals are often preactive, same approach can be done as a knight. You can cast a heal while the tank is at 100% knowing that when it lands, the tank will take damage.

    So literally blow might land... and .001 sec later a heal lands because I cast that heal 3 seconds earlier
  20. Deckerd Smeckerd Augur

    That interesting. I've never played a healer past level 10.