Discussion in 'Tanks' started by sojero, May 3, 2013.

  1. Battleaxe Augur

    The difference is the Warrior and the SK are getting hit by an AE in addition to melee damage. The SK has clicked his Epic. Whoa look at those offset all forms of damage HP's roll in. No chance that the SK will die but the Warrior is doomed - he can only reduce the damage that the next melee round does to him. He's still stuck with that AE damage.

    Emergency! Click Flash and quaff that healing potion. Ready Res.

    Look guy, I've watched knight HP bars in raids and in groups for, my goodness, years. I've played a group geared Paladin to level 85. I KNOW self buff, weapon buff, BP click, /flex... C'mon undead meet your daddy!! there's content where Warriors having more mitigation used to rule and there's content (95% of group content) where close to Warrior mitigation PLUS active and passive combat self-healing knights make Warriors look 2-3 levels lower than they are by comparison.

    With 2, 3(?) threads devoted to almost clinical descriptions (outright bragging is frowned upon lately - it gets classes nerfed or competing classes upgraded) of how SK's swarm on Evil Gamer you don't think the general population has figured things out?? Really?

    With Paladins one tanking half of T2/T3 in a single night Warriors aren't supposed to blink??

    Yeah yeah - I've heard the It's just like Afterlife having knights tank PoTime AFTER everyone was geared up argument. The difference is Afterlife pulled that off near the end of the expansion. With as little as 10 hours needed to beat T3 from the moment of release that is not much of a throw Warriors at it until we learn the events period of Warrior tanking superiority.

    With knight effective AC returned from displayed, gear stats, and undisced mitigation pratcally identical to Warrior plus more defense abilities that previously, plus bigtime combat self healing there's no Warrior survivability advantage. There's knight combat self-healing advantage.

    You can not look at just mitigation alone.
  2. Mistatk Augur

    I agree with Battle on all his above points. I have only thought of mitigation as , once everything else is said and done, and your getting hit, a reduction in how much you are hit for. You don't mitigate any amount of a hit that misses you. I guess you could say you mitigated 100% of it by having it not hit you, but as far as terminology that's not how I tend to talk about mitigation. Getting a timely heal might be part of a "mitigating circumstance" that caused you to not die. I don't think of heals in terms of actual mitigation though.
  3. Soleran Journeyman

    I agree, healing is in no way mitigation, it does nothing prevent incoming damage.
  4. Lanthor Elder

    Posting from my phone so il be brief....Maybe I do overestimate it, but don't we average about 15 or 20 actual landed hit/kick/bash etc. every 15 seconds or so raid tanking? I recall I went through a quick skim of some log fights a while back, and being generous it ranged from 26 to as low as 8. Wouldn't that be somewhere in the ballpark of 15-20% mitigation? I vaguely recall a thread in beta also where someone parsed out similar returns.

    Heck, even 10% is a lot isn't it according to so many people here lol? We have been spiting hairs over this all over the place here. Anyway, I was honestly just trying to account for what closed the gap so rapidly on parses; if its not a ridiculous request we could simply give it to warriors, and we might be back in a bit better place.
  5. Battleaxe Augur

    I agree, mitigation does nothing to replace HP's lost and a HP bar leaving you in the danger zone. I agree, mitigation does nothing vs. melee damage that isn't mitigated, mob damage shields, AE's, DoTs, DD's, etc. and combat self-healing does.

    With knights having a huge share of Warrior passive and active mitigation it's both intuitively obvious and readily apparent just by observing knights in action what the impact is of the extreme combat self-healing gap.

    Mitigation regulates the size of the melee damage only hole in the bottom of the Max HP's container (there are other holes)

    Healing and combat self-healing put HP's back into the Max HP's container not caring how HP's were lost.

    They both affect survival in different but complimentary ways.

    Knights have both. Warriors do not.

    Having or not having at-will self recovery from wounds during combat effects everything from tanking hordes of light blue experience mobs, multi-tanking more normal mobs, to tanking raid boss mobs. Given sufficient mitigation not to be a just a paper tank (knights got the lion's share of Warrior mitigation former advantage - lets share yours Warriors. Mmmmm tasty.) its survival by a different and often superior method (knights hide theirs).
  6. Soleran Journeyman

    That's fine however it has nothing to do with my response to the OP poster. Explanations aren't required I understand their roles, they have been the same in every mmo/tank setup and not just in EQ although this particular subject of knights/warriors is.

    It wouldnt bother me in the slightest if warriors got someway to heal like sk's or paladins and all three were totally interchangable but I get the feeling that's not how the community feels.
  7. Coruth Augur

    To borrow an analogy.

    "Coke is not Pepsi. Pepsi is not Coke."
    "But for many cases, and for many people they are interchangible. Even if some people prefer Coke and others prefer Pepsi"

    Coke = Mitigation
    Pepsi = Self Healing
    People = Situtation/Damage Type


    Again the main difference occurs when you can be 1-rounded before self healing that hasn't happened this expansion
  8. Battleaxe Augur

    Spraying "Healing is not mitigation" on a wall is a political statement.

    It's important to list the characteristics of both and note that while they are not the same they are both currency that purchases survivability. You know it? Good, then say it - don't take up the easy to repeat but untruthful at its base "Healing is not mitigation" chant.

    As someone who's done their share of sloganeering in EQ I'm careful to stick to things that are in a broad way truthful. Truthful even if debatable.
    Tanking = aggro + survivability <- example.

    We're not supposed to be totally interchangeable. Warriors should have the unmatched ability to survive the most brutal battles and having that advantage nulified in group content in the interests of "Tank Parity" we are entitled to a least parity when not tanking raid boss mobs.

    Parity should not be a one way street <- another example of a slogan with broad truthfulness. Any fair minded person would agree.
  9. Soleran Journeyman

    Your particular bias in use of simply words complicates an issue that isn't complicated. Your perception is such that there is spin or in some way deceit by keeping things simple in the explanation of healing vs mitigation or the value of such words when used to describe taking damage.

    Better parses look at maximum TTL (time to live) with and without support and leaves language like mitigation and healing out of the discussion in regards to tanking.

    Which doesn't change the fact that for discussion between absorbing damage between tanks = mitigation.

    Healing is simply a tool used to extend the time to tank but doesn't impact maximum hits or avoidance and therefore not a good word used when discussing said mitigation.

    Healing isn't mitigation, no political spin no bias in that statement as now defined in my previous statements it is however a tool used to prolong said tanking.

    You are still running an slogan Battleaxe and trying to sell off someone elses by using your "perceptions" of said words and attempting to invalidate them by creating credibility in your own words.

    Either way it doesn't change the reality of what the two words mean.
  10. Battleaxe Augur

    Either way it doesn't change the reality of what the two abilities affect when employed. Slowing down the (melee only) bleeding is nice but there are other causes of blood loss and people require more than an ounce of blood to function. Knights have a blood bank. (stealth <-)

    Survivability is not just mitigation. <-
    (and Warriors were told we'd have the unmatched ability to survive the most brutal battles amended to parity in group content)

    From a value exchange for survivability point of view healing is mitigation (<- btw, the technique is called co-opting, not "selling off".). Keeping in mind that the two survivability factors have some significant differences that prevent them from being synonyms.
  11. Deckerd Smeckerd Augur



    1. Make less severe, serious, or painful: "he wanted to mitigate misery in the world".
    2. Lessen the gravity of (an offense or mistake).

    Anything that decreases the amount of damage a mob will do is mitigation. Mitigation occurs before your hit points are adjusted. Anything that simply restores lost hit points is not mitigation.
  12. Battleaxe Augur

    Wanting to reduce the misery in the world, he created Doctors without Borders. Do they "Make less severe, serious, or painful:". Yep.

    Are they the same? No. But misery relieved doesn't care and it's hitpoints in HP bars that matter sir.

    From a big picture viewpoint healing = mitigation.

    Since none of us are 1 rounded anymore self-healing is doesn't care how you were hurt repair and melee mitigation is darn I got hurt I hope I get repaired.
  13. Tearsin Rain Augur

    yeah about 25-30 swings on a raid mob in 15 seconds, give or take, that sounds about right for actual landed.

    it completely depends on the hits that land while it's up, which unfortunately is very annoying to calculate (possible, just annoying)
    if you're shaving 90% off a 500 damage kick that isn't doing much for the 28k hit that lands after it.

    if i had to guess i would say that AC values catching up to or exceeding ATK values on mobs, and thus capping/smoothing out DI distribution plays a huge part in it.
    then add things like reprove and it makes that gap even smaller - we've always known wars are way better when the mobs are hard, the less 'hard' they are relative to the player the smaller the power gap between war tanking and knight tanking.

    plus, things like personal tribute, guild tribute, what trophies you have available, whether you have a leveled up stone tear or not, shawl 2.0... there's a lot of factors that go in to bridging a parse gap, especially when you're dealing with higher end raiders in top end guilds.
  14. Soleran Journeyman

    No it doesn't but you can keep attempting to align the two.

    healing + mitigation= survivability

    There are no words that make healing = mitigation.

    To mitigate is it reduce or lessen.

    To heal is to restore.

    You cannot restore what hasn't be taken or lessened(health) therefore it isn't mitigating damage simply preserving health pools.
  15. Coruth Augur

    Okay Soleran you win.

    Premise 1) Warriors should have the best tanking Survivability because they offer the least utility
    Premise 2) Knights are currently far too close in survivability to warriors


    Does your whole word argument really matter ?

    Whether I say "Mitgation and Self Healing are the same"
    or you say "Mitigation is part of Survivability and Self Healing is part of Survivability"

    Tomato meet Tomato
  16. Tearsin Rain Augur

    except this is really "tomato meet hypoglycemia" wherein your keep insisting that hypoglycemia is a small round red fruit and anyone who questions that you call it that is wrong.

    words have meanings, you can't arbitrarily up and redefine a word to mean whatever you want it to and then expect everyone else to get on board with it.
    Tegila likes this.
  17. Explicit Augur

    Hey look, another worthless "warrior vs knight" thread. Surely setting a record somewhere here.

    OP asked for OPINIONS on what mitigation means to different players. No where did he ask for the dictionary definition of mitigation or proceed to call people out for being "wrong".

    Since we're throwing in dictionary definitions, here you go.

    a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
    a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
    the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
    Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
    a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.

    But, as usual with tank threads, this got derailed into a massive measuring contest. GG
  18. BoomWalker Augur

    Trying to sound smart by throwing in internet fodder does nothing to help this discussion.

    The noun standard does not apply in this adjective standard discussion...

    Bring your points without trying to impress others with internet fodder to seem smarter then the community. It does not help your position.

    How does survivability, mitigation, and healing relate to each other as it applies to this thread?
  19. Soleran Journeyman

    The original poster asked for opinions, you shared yours and I shared mine. I was basing disucssion points on factual bits of information well recognized by individuals by simply looking up the words:

    Mitigate & Healing.

    They are both a part of survival however the language isn't interchangable when used in a discussion involving tanking. They are seperate componants that need to be looked at separately in regards to tanking and balance. I'm all for that and if it means warriors get some healing baked into them, fine or if sk's get more mitigation fine. I just want a clear discussion with a points that can be discussed and identified without muddied waters.
  20. BoomWalker Augur

    Sadly, some are trying to address the OP points/questions/request...and the post you replied to are simply attempting to hijack the thread for another closed tanking debate thread.

    Support your and other useful posters attempts to keep the thread on track...