Melee Mitigation / Avoidance.

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Brogett, Mar 27, 2015.

  1. The Flash Lorekeeper

    I don't think anyone could actually accurately guess the class that is the closest second to 'tanks' in actuality.

    From testing in RoF era it was always monks>bards>enchanters but, things have changed since then.
  2. Schadenfreude Augur

    [IMG]
  3. Songsa Augur

    Looks like the only things that matter for devs atm is new progression server and new loot system, better come back here in 6 months or so...
    Dre. likes this.
  4. Nedrom Augur

    FYI... testing dummies, if you say /say increase mitigation etc... I recall that if you say it too many times it resets to the default and cycles through a loop of all the values... the problem is there is no feedback to know what value you are set at.
  5. Nedrom Augur

    Hi Brogett

    I don't mean to troll, I'm just saying that if you want changes where they are required, some direct dev communication to get the things you are missing to parse what you need is necessary.

    When I helped with the monk mitigation nerf reversal, I worked directly with a dev and he gave me anything I wanted on test / beta. That's how I accomplished it all.

    You are right, by yourself, you are limited to certain things. That's why I said think outside the box, get some real parse data and then we can fight for change.
    Brogett likes this.
  6. Fenudir Augur

    I thought about that too so I patiently sat there and let the dummy attack me while I slowly tried to get it to increase attack over the course of over 20 minutes. Still no help.
  7. Viscosity New Member

    Looking over these Shield of * spells that the casters get is disappointing as a melee. Do we even know if bladeshield for rogues works. I may parse it this weekend. Even if it did its probably 0% on most recent expansions mobs with 100% strikethrough or some lame crap.

    Imagine mob strikethrough effected runes as well.
  8. Songsa Augur

    I never saw bladeshield work since it was implemented and we forwarded the parses several times. Maybe it's working now but i doubt it cause we got no info about a fix.
  9. telechir Elder

  10. Sirene_Fippy Augur

    /bump and update for about 1 year later

    The two main AE rampage events in TBM have been 1) Stem the Tide (Akkapan Adan) and 2) Captain Krasnok (anniversary raid).

    I compiled my logs from Dec 2015 - June 2016 for all Stem the Tide and Captain Krasnok raids, here are the AE rampage results sorted by class:

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    Link to post w/ graphs from TDS

    If you combine both of the TBM raids, the class rankings for average AE ramp hit look like so: (% Difference is ratio of TBM to TDS Avg)
    [IMG]

    I greyed out INT casters because I think their data is skewed due to runes and low total hits.

    If we lump tanks together (just for TBM), and melee DPS together, we see the following averages:
    [IMG]

    That is a pretty big difference, but there should be a purpose in being a tank.

    Some points:
    - PAL and SHD now take much less damage than they used to, outpacing the warriors' lead in TDS. Likely due to the addition of Knight's Sedulity.
    - Overall the average AE ramp damage has decreased since TDS (yay)
    - The class rankings changed a bit, BST and DRU are still terrible and BER is doing a lot better (personally I'm surprised on BER)
    - CLR and SHM seem to take AE ramp damage better than every melee. Guessing because of Shields. Perhaps a nice DRU 1h/shield combo would turn the tide for them? :p
    - Overall, TBM was a lot better for melee DPS, aside from Stem the Tide which makes me want to throw my computer out the window. Still better than TDS though. :D
  11. p2aa Augur


    Most largely due to the fact they got a 30 % Defensive Proficiency stacking with the 5 % Sedulity.
    These numbers confirmed me that now : Pal > SK > War in most tanking situations.
    And it's raw mitigation here, warriors are now the worst tank class for raw mitigation situations with 0 disc used.
  12. Ravengloome Augur

    How many of those warriors and SKs were using 2handers. I am guessing atleast a couple?

    The paladin one is surprising, but was the paladin also the ramp tank? he may have been running discs the duration of the event. (although captain krasnok is undead, so he should have been pewpewing for lolz but whatever)

    There is nothing really that would make a paladin take that much less damage in relation to warriors/SK's i would expect the gap to be closer. Also the paladins sample size is massively smaller than the other 2 classes.

    And Druids just suck at mitigating they probably should have got a shield of fate type thing when the other really crappy AC return classes got one.
  13. Kamea Augur

    This myth is annoying and needs to stop. People see a buff/disc's stats on a spell parser and think it's a strong ability, while being completely uneducated on what other abilities were changed or how they interact with each other.

    For 15 years, raid bosses have always been balanced around the tank using discs. In VoA, our disced mitigation was 60%, and it was seen as a given that we'd have at least a 10% absorb/vie buff us (this assumption has been around since 2010 / HoT.) This notion that (ie) zerkers could tank raid bosses in VoA is fictional nostalgia.

    When we got stances in CotF, they nerfed our disced mitigation from 60% to 50%. What it did change was how big the gap was between not being disced and being disced.

    Before stances:
    Disced: 60%
    Undisced (any stance): 15%

    After stances:
    Disced: 50%
    Undisced S&B: 35%
    Undisced 2H: 5%

    If anything, the increase mob DPS is from buffs in bosses' hit accuracy and the prevalence of cleric multibind healing which significantly increases the spam quick cast healing clerics can deliver.
    Dre. likes this.
  14. Tanols Augur

    [QUOTE (personally I'm surprised on BER)][/QUOTE]

    Some of us learned to start using our Rune/Vie AA Uncanny Resilience more often and more effectively. It requires a much higher absorption limit to come close to caster rune/vie effectiveness however.
    Also vast majority of berserkers went with all HDex builds which might have some unintented benefit.
    Traditionally AE Ramp was dealt with by staying at max melee range and backing out as soon as you took damage. It always has been a potential death sentence for melee, especially for zerkers who were being blinded or rooted under disc/AA.
    Shaman rain heals have increased potential survival a huge amount as well so there is a risk of complacency leading to death.
  15. Triconix Augur

    I'm going to leave up the Paladin mitigation up to lower amounts hit.

    Looking at the SK vs War is really troubling. Even if we're using 2h this is starting to point out that base mitigation is in favor of knights rather than warriors. I was always under the impression that mitigation was the warrior retaliation for knight combat self-healing. I guess knights can have both and we'll be happy with our minor advantage in activated mitigation abilities and hp.

    So much for that AC return advantage :rolleyes:
  16. mackal Augur

    Which brings them up to 35% mitigation matching the warriors previous total of 35% mitigation. 0 discs used, warriors are still a head due to better AC on class specific gear and over cap AC returns.
  17. Kobrah Augur

    Careful! Don't make this into yet another tank thread lol. Thread title reads "
    Melee Mitigation / Avoidance. "
    Sancus and Sheex like this.
  18. mackal Augur

    The thing I find the most interesting: BER taking so much less damage than ROG. Both graphs have similar samples, but ROG is so much higher. ROG/BER are on the same returns/softcap. Their class gear at least matches AC. The heroics don't look too different. Their non-vis slots are probably similarly picked. hmmm....

    Also monks not being that much different than BER ... can we get a DPS increase finally :p (yes, I know last patch included some monk goodies, I haven't actually gotten around to playing and seeing if it actually increased DSP at all ...)
  19. Jaerlyn Augur

    I'm speaking only of raids here.

    If a Raid Named turns on anything but a Pal, SK, or War, the simple fact is, that player should die. (Short of special events, etc, that require it.)

    However, other than that, no one should ever die, unless someone makes a mistake. (That mistake can be made by someone else other than the dead person.)

    It's not a question of melee mitigation vs caster mitigation. it's that the mobs should not do enough damage to kill a player who is not screwing up. Be it AEs, DoTs, AE Ramp on mobs that are expected to be melee'd, etc.
    The issue here isn't one of player stats in my opinion, it's an issue of raid design.

    They should not be designing mobs that kill players that are not making mistakes.
    Mind you, I am considering being undergeared while attempting to beat an event a mistake.

    The devs should, I think, look at what a top melee, fully in HP-based group gear (the fact that some want AC so they can tank outside raids is not relevant) and use that as a cap for the most damage a mob can put out on a properly positioned player. I say group gear because new people have to come from somewhere, and we shouldn't make them all go back and raid earlier stuff before they can join current raids. (I'll also put in the caveat of adjusting gear from pure HP to have mod2s capped (35 spell shielding, etc.) As a player transitions from group to raid gear, they can also transition away from HPs into more atk, etc. I realize everyone would draw the line in a different place, but my point is, there should be a line drawn that doesn't effectively insta-kill someone not making a mistake.

    There is nothing wrong with making people back out of AE ramp range for heals, etc, then diving back in, but they need to be allowed time to actually move.

    Randomly spawned adds during events shouldn't be able to one round melee in the first round, either.

    I'm not, in any way, asking for things to be made easier. MOBs one-shotting people doesn't make an event hard, it just makes it annoying.

    Mind you, in all this, I am specifically talking about people doing what is expected of them, by the devs, at that point in time on the raid. Not people in the wrong positions, or over-aggroing, or missing emotes, etc. People actually doing what they are supposed to be doing, properly, on the raid.

    I think the answer to this isn't a change to melee abilities (or caster, for that matter) - it's a design fix. Less 'arbitrary' damage, (but please without it all devolving into even more of an emote fest.)
    Sancus, Warpeace and Brohg like this.
  20. p2aa Augur

    Have you read these results ?
    In first parse, SK take 2K hit less than Warriors and Paladins take 8 K hit less
    In second parse, SK take 1K hit less and Paladins take 4K hit less
    Warriors are ahead of knights ? I'm not sure if you are trolling or not.

    AC is the same on all plate classes, can you link me the AC advantage of "warrior class specific gear" compared to knights ?
    Also the over cap AC returns lol, this is a joke, from my memories 35 % for warriors, 33% for knights, yeah what a difference.
    It has never believed to make any difference, and the parses shown there just prove that it's doing no difference.
    In fact, these parses show that passive mitigation Knights mitigate hits better than Warriors, which is just wrong.

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