Melee Mitigation / Avoidance.

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Brogett, Mar 27, 2015.

  1. Brogett Augur

    Look at the data. It's not just runes IMO. Like I said it could be many things, like the ability to use a shield, staff block, etc. Maybe mitigation would help, maybe avoidance, I don't really know and nor is it my place to decide (although I can have an opinion). As a player it *is* my job though to put the data on the table and ask the devs to look at it.

    SOMETHING needs adjusting and we can't just ignore it. Well I guess we can get this thread locked too as not being productive...
  2. Dre. Augur

    I certainly don't disagree with your analysis of the data. You're far better suited to that than I am anyway.

    My gut feeling is that the runes make a large difference, and with that and some MOE considered I see tanks fairly well positioned relative to other classes (minus pets)
    I appreciate that you're participating in making suggestions rather than the unconstructive whining we usually see when it comes to balance, but I reserve the right to have an opinion too :)
    Still on board with you here. I don't raid either, but the story in this thread is pretty clear - this expansion's raids are very melee unfriendly. Someone probably either got carried away, or deliberately tuned them in an attempt to compensate for the lack of raids.
    Brogett likes this.
  3. Viscosity New Member

    A start could be offhand AC (and berserker 2h) counting as shield AC. Monk 2hb has counted as shield AC for as long as I can remember. Also a bonus buff on parry / block /riposte that blocks the next x hits would be cool as well.
  4. Dre. Augur

    These are the kind of things Warriors have been asking for years in response to our overdependence on shield usage beginning in Underfoot. What we got instead was an overly cumbersome and inflexible Proficiency system with some very annoying drawbacks.

    Perhaps there's ground to be made with a multi-class approach.
  5. Harabakc Augur

    The rogue community did ask for a dagger block since we ourselves by equipping shields and had numerous ranks of shield block.

    If you're going to make melee stand in the middle of the meat grinder to deal the damage, then let them deal frigging damage, if you're not going to give them the damage let them survive it better.(Didn't start with this expansion Dre., sadly it's been that way for too long)

    It's a very simple concept that's skewed way too far the wrong way.

    Seriously, imp proceeded by a g is filtered?
  6. Nedrom Augur


    I don't need your respect. I just think you're going about this entirely the wrong way and for the wrong reasons.
  7. Brogett Augur

    Feel free to enlighten the rest of us then as to why melee take higher hits than their caster counterparts. So far all you've said is our strats are poor.

    Give us some wisdom so we can amend our strats... Let us know what the right way is and/or the right reasons.
  8. Ravengloome Augur


    PLAY MOAR BETTR
    Nedrom likes this.
  9. Nedrom Augur


    Years ago when I helped get the monk mitigation nerf reversed and shortly after ran many parses for rangers to get them a boost, I did so by cooperating with the devs in a constructive manner by working on both beta and test in a controlled environment with controlled buffs and gear and various classes. I then sat there for 8 hours a day parsing for 2-3 months and then presented my data to the devs. Soon after, monks got mitigation back in heaps and we were a very happy class because of it. Same with Rangers, from what I read.

    What you are doing is going ZOMG... uber_raid_boss rampage hits me for one hit and a die, but casters don't QQ.

    Think outside the box bro.

    PS: any fixes, nerfs or changes to discs, mitigation, spells, etc... also affect all players, including groupers. Did you forget about that? A lot has to be considered when you look at mitigation. I still think this is a big QQ fest about caster's abilities and trying to get them nerfed. This isn't my first hay ride.
  10. Brogett Augur

    1) It's not beta. We can't just /betabuff a new toon out of nowhere for controlled parsing and I simply don't have these characters available to me, but I invite anyone who does to do some parsing. However yes, in beta I've done much the same before, albeit for side by side comparisons of dps instead of defensives. (The last time I did this was a few years back and a couple berserkers made a name for themselves by continuous trolling to try and bury the graphs.)

    2) Try looking at the actual posts. You'll see data, gleaned from many real fights. Sure it's not enough, but see point 1 - we cannot magic data out of thin air. I encourage others to repeat what I did (I showed how it was done) and so far one other has folllowed up with their data too. And know what? It agrees with my own.

    I know the data isn't as compelling as it could be, but I don't have the chars available to prove it cast iron, but enough to demonstrate something is amiss.

    3) We're suggesting a whole raft of possible changes. This is the sort of thing that happens when you say "How about boosting avoidance then to make melee dual wield comparable to a caster with staff block?" [utter silence]... "OK how about mitigation instead?" [utter silence]...

    If there's no reply from our queries, then we try a different tack, but it's like getting blood out of a stone sometimes. Anyway, the *data* is here and that's what matters. Also yes, of course I think about the group game, but if a wiz mitigates better than a berserker say on raid content then they'll also be mitigating better than a berserker on group content. Possibly it's an issue with raid mob attack values, but that has an even bigger impact as it makes the raid tanks get hit for far less. The devs have the knowledge, we don't. All we can do is point out the problem and let them decide how best to fix it. Suggestions for change are simply born out of being ignored.

    4) Where are we asking to nerf int, wiz, etc? The only one that looks somewhat out of line is enchanters (and infact I even had an enchanter *ASK* me to get their runes nerfed, lol), but even there we're not rattling the nerf sabre. No melee in their right mind wants to see others getting 1 rounded to rampage either - they just want to have the tools to live!

    Finally Nedrom, I'll repeat your sarcastic and cutting reply to me earlier: "I don't need to see the event. If melee are taking damage and clueless as to why, that's not game balance issues, that's purely strategy." Did you forget to reply when I asked you what strategy we're all missing?

    If you're going to continue to claim we're all clueless with bad strategy without backing it up at all, I'll just report it for trolling.
  11. Dre. Augur

    The main issue I see with boosting passive mitigation or passive avoidance is that given the history of said boosts, they are likely to occur in only very small increments. I would expect these to fall well short of the mark to address any issues we're seeing here.
    The right kind of ability would eliminate a high percentage of melee classes' incidental damage while adding minimal direct tankability.

    Some sort of procced, or activated ability with a medium duration and controlled with a counter system or damage cap would probably be ideal here. The goal is to absorb/avoid a reasonable amount of damage per minute, aimed at rampage hits or swings from unhandled adds.

    I envision something like this to be fairly similar to the way a caster activates runes, or maybe a proc buff you hit before the fight. Definitely something that refreshes with a medium duration, rather than requiring you to hit a button or get a lucky proc within 1 tick of an AE going off or an add sneaking up on you.

    Good abilities: Prism Skin proc, Shield of Fate/Consequence, Nimble Reflexes
    Bad abilities: Agile-Footed, Sheltering Blades, Reprove
  12. Random_Enchanter Augur

    1) you have access to test, from my understanding there exists many ways to parse multiple things on test for long periods of time. i could be wrong though.

    2) Bad data is bad data. There is no acceptable 'data' posted by you that has provided in this thread. Filppy posted some decent data but its not enough. He also (tried) to explain various spikes in his data.

    3) typically for these types of requests ~10 hours worth of parse on a single mob that is done in correlation with successful request of this type. This is done across multiple mobs, with multiple gearing strategies done on various classes.

    4) your entire tone in the mass majority of your posts are laced with comments that scream "OMG NERF CASTERS, or make melee better" Proof to point, your comment about the enchanter.

    Lastly I would like to add in, your not viewing what each and every class is doing. Enchanters front load runes. We mitigate for beyond runes and our self Vie ability. I'm sure Zerkers have some disc that lets them do more damage (lolz) in return for taking more damage. The list goes on. In order to have 'proper' melee mitigation levels you need to consider the baseline and the disced/buffed versions.

    Additionally you always have the ability to ask your local raid enchanter for darkened rune/auspice. Though with how you post on here i'm not to sure that wont get frightening rune instead.
    Nedrom likes this.
  13. bukstab New Member

    It's not only that casters get runes, and mitigate almost as well as chain/leather melee, its the fact they can play for the most part out side of rampage range. Bosses were made harder because they were too easy to tank and that caused more rampage damage also, as a unintended side effect. Melee dps is at a great disadvantage relative to casters, and most people seem aware. Keep in mind tank mercs were given lower AC at level 101 and greater avoidance so tank mercs actually get a lot weaker from level 100 to 101 not stronger. That's because game designers don't always think through the unintended consequences of how the game progresses, for example how strike through is between 95-100% now. Melee dps need enhanced mitigation or runes so that they can be on even footing with other classes. Hopefuly some day it gets fixed.
  14. Dre. Augur

    Numerically, all mercenaries (not just tank mercs) were cranked up so high in effective AC that they were taking lower DI hits more often than tanks were. So the change to tank mercs was to make them tank more like tanks and less like pets. Things like AC buffs and ATK debuffs are now more relevant when using a merc tank, plus the increased HP pool lets them better survive nasty things like large spell damage or healing gaps which are more dangerous to a tank than raw melee damage.
  15. Fenudir Augur

    So everyone knows, there are combat dummies on Test that can be used to test defensives. The problem is that their attacks are incredibly weak. I mean PoP era weak. I've tried bumping them up with the commands that do so but either the commands are broken or they're capped far too low to make a difference.

    The combat dummies on the Test server need a serious upgrade.
    Nedrom likes this.
  16. Brohg Augur

    Prism Skin proc for melee dps would be the right kinda hot stuff.
  17. Brogett Augur

    Sure I have access to test, but I don't have access to level 105 of every class (infact none other than my own class). As I said, I can't just "/betabuff" to create new toons.

    As for bad data, I don't believe it's bad data, it's just incomplete data. Filppy took my own method and applied it to his guild too, so either we're both bad or both ok. I added caveats to my own data and explained it too. If more did it then we'd get a more complete picture.

    Finally I'll repeat it again incase you don't believe it. *I* don't want to nerf casters. I simply want to be better than them at taking a beating. Is that unfair? I think not given I'm a melee. It's not "I WANT GIMME GIMME" but simply the original balance of how this game was designed.
  18. Brogett Augur

    Correct that melee dps shouldn't be tanks. I think there are multiple effects going on here that we need more data to tease apart. I suspect it is a combination of using a shield and/or staff with staff block, plus runes. Neither of these are available to the melee dps. *IF* the shield/staff for casters is enough to make them out-mitigate melee then the melee mitigate still needs fixing, but I'm not sure if that is true or not.

    I agree what we need is something to avoid some damage while not tanking. This could perhaps come via runes (IIRC melee asked for them though and were denied when they were given to the casters) or if that's not acceptable via avoidance. Avoidance generally makes melee survive better, but it's spikey as mad so doesn't equate well to duration tanking.

    Either way, I accept we need more data. If people have access to the appropriate toons then please do help out and provide it.

    (Hint: you can buff the attack substantially on arena dummies by saying "increase attack", but there's no clear way to know if you've got a realistic amount short of parsing for a while and looking at the DI spread.)
  19. Ronthorn Oakenarm Augur

    I still Recall the work you did on that Ned, Thanks again from many many Rangers. I still remind newer Rangers that did not play during this time the help you did for them.
    Nedrom likes this.
  20. Fenudir Augur

    I've actually spammed a hot key trying to get those dummies up to something past PoP level values. And I mean I've spammed the poop out of that key. No dice. They're either capped somehow or the software that runs them is just incapable of modern numbers. Either way they are useless for the testing we need.

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