Melee Mitigation / Avoidance.

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Brogett, Mar 27, 2015.

  1. Dre. Augur

    See post#27. Tuning changes or melee survivability tools.

    Done properly, new 'proactive' tools could save you from a lot more incidental damage than a 10% mitigation boost.

    I've always envisioned Rogues as a class that only another Rogue could sneak up on.
  2. Iila Augur

    I was surprised that melee dps were taking damage as badly or even worse than druids. We have the bad AC returns of casters, low AC armor, no defensive skills, and no runes. But we do have a shield. If strike through on mobs is high enough to get around all those extra dodge skills that melees have, then it's really coming down to just their AC mitigating DI rolls, plus any damage reduction discs. I guess bsts get the short of the stick on being a DWing leather class without defensives?

    Doing the Y axis lines as damage intervals for that mob might be interesting, to see which classes average a full DI or more of difference.
  3. Brogett Augur

    I'd still like to see many more pieces of data. It MAY just be that we have some weak beastlords. I know ours have quite a wide range of gear.

    It would be more interesting to see an equivalent dump from a guild with everyone being very well gearred.
  4. Apoc Augur

    I am kind of curious about the ae ramp this only hits people not at max melee range am i right ?. I remember a time when people died when they were too close to the mob and not watching max melee. A lot of times i see melee just balls to walls and out of control. I do think that melee should receive some sort of shielding similar to casters for DD nukes. There are things that can help though enc and wiz shields etc that can be cast on melee groups glyph spray. Yes melee are in a bad spot i feel bad for you guys. :(
  5. Songsa Augur

    Its not that we didnt tried to focus attention on that for years. Melee always took risks to dps, the difference is that we had some rewards for it. Now people start to see there is a problem when they see melee dying like before and that the heroic survivors still are miles away (dps wise) from the little gnome in the corner.
  6. fortuneteller Augur

    Tried to check on the best equipped beast, to see if still in that bad end?

    If not, then it is clearly the equipment, if still, and the equipment on that beast is same level as other classes
    then there is problem for the beastlords, if equipment is below other classes then it might be equipment stil.
  7. fortuneteller Augur

    I dont know if ebeastlords have a problem or not, except it points toward that they have.

    Could be that the devs think something like: Beastlords got healing powers, so they can heal themselves and therefor less need avoidance?
    Only problem with that thought that in raids it Means less having a healing power, sure can heal a bit, but that dont mean much on raid rampage Things.

    IF beasts do have problem, maybe then 1 of following...

    Beastlords could use tuned down version of rune like casters or a skin thing like druids. Or maybe, since beastlords are pet owners and have block. Add a5% block to the group pet earring and 8% block on raid pet earring
  8. Schadenfreude Augur

    Not using their quick re-use defensive disc perhaps.
  9. Dre. Augur

    While this may be true in many cases, NPC hitbox size and rampage range are not directly related.
  10. Bigstomp Augur

    A warrior expecting to need to tank will often have defensive proficiency up - It's not last stand but it mitigates fairly decently and we'll go with last stand when it's time to step up and actually tank. So by extension we'll also mitigate the AE ramp fairly well.
  11. Phrovo1 Augur

    Yep, casters having better ability to cope with things like wild ramp is definitely intended. It's not exactly that TDS events are hard (a couple are pretty sketchy at times). It's that there's a huge chance to die to some add, AE, or wild ramp. Often times it's 100-0 in less than a second. Shield of Fate (which is what most casters use right now I've heard) mitigates both melee and spell damage. I've seen mages stand longer to an adds than zerkers, rogues, and even monks (this is partially due to the fact that the npcs still have to run to them), meaning that they have more of a chance to fade if they need to. Kinda hard to fade when you die as quickly as I mentioned earlier! The risk vs. reward is whack yo!
  12. Seldom Augur

    That was an extremely good point. Your claiming someone is ''whining'' about raid game being too ''hard'', when you yourself haven't even done the raids. If you had, maybe you'd understand the Brogett's and other melee raiders of world have extremely valid complaints. Vast difference between valid complaints, cries for nerfs and ''whining''.
    Songsa and Ravengloome like this.
  13. Nedrom Augur

    In my book, it's poor taste to lobby class balance complaints if you find an event too hard. Instead, invest your time better by learning the game mechanics and thinking outside of the box to do things differently.

    Using class balance as a crutch excuse because you have problems with a raid event is just silly. Especially under the guise of trying to improve your class based on another classes abilities that are not relevant.

    It doesn't matter if I've been on the event or not, raids are raids, regardless of what the content is.
  14. Behelit Augur

    And in my book its in poor taste to comment on things that you really aren't capable of because you lack any knowledge or experience in the area being discussed..

    This has nothing do with nerf mongering or stealing class abilities or raid events being too hard. Why should anyone listen to your opinion when you havent seen the events, you dont even have a max level toon, and you're a Monk having the most survivability of the melee? Your opinion is pure ignorance and your suggestions laughable:
    Maybe you should take your own advice here, at least the first part and look up the mechanics being discussed and the buffs that casters have. Then try observing how they function in live play and then come back here and try to continue to argue your case of how we're all just whining.
    Harabakc, Sheex, Songsa and 2 others like this.
  15. Nedrom Augur

    I still stand by what I said. I don't need to see the event. If melee are taking damage and clueless as to why, that's not game balance issues, that's purely strategy.

    I've been down this mitigation road before with helping restore the monk nerfs over a decade ago to our mitigation. What you're trying to do is use class balancing and abilities as an excuse for dying. Not a valid reason.

    Nerf mongering is exactly what this thread is doing. News flash, there will never be easy buttons on raids. They're meant to be hard.
  16. Phrovo1 Augur

    Who said that we were clueless as to why we are taking so much damage? Have you seen some of the crazy stuff that melee has to deal with this expansion just to do their job? There is wild ramp that has the potential to round even monks (which it often does). There are PBAEs that can do the same. And lets not forget all the anti-kiting/slowing mechanics! All these must be dealt with just to whack a mob. This expansion is so riddled with -you melee mechanics that it's not even funny.

    But go ahead, compare TDS to HoT. Maybe the best 'strategy' to not taking so much damage is to roll another character (tm) or quit.
  17. Brogett Augur

    I used to have great respect for you Nedrom, but you're eroding it by continuing to comment on the state of raiding melee when you don't actually play a raiding melee.

    Firstly, *YES* I have seen us deliberately choose a caster over a tank before! lol. In PoWar when it first came out there were a variety of mobs with some that hit hard as hell. The really tough ones we swapped from pally tank to enchanter tank as they took less damage. For real... Things aren't quite that bad (but close) now as they attemped to reduce runes a bit. I'm not requesting a nerf (although I know an *enchanter* themselves that specifically asked me to bring it up with the devs as it made solo play too trivial and dull), nor am I asking for nerfing of other casters.

    However I'm not pointing at others and saying I'm envious. I'm using cold hard data to demonstrate that how classes has shifted over time and the traditional view is worthless now. Melee need a boost. Here is the evidence. How should I ask for it? Just do it with no data, no evidence? That'd just get dismissed out of hand, as it should do.

    Fact is melee (and apparently beastlords) take one hell of a beating and we could do with better mitigation to cope with it. We die so often, and it's not bad strats unless you mean we should do ranged dps even more often than we do (yawn).
  18. Apoc Augur

    Just a thought maybe have your enchanters back off some of their dps and do some rune and spell shield on the melee groups. It is a team game you know. Although I do agree melee could use some sort of shielding for the raid game only they seem fine in group content.
  19. Brogett Augur

    It's probably related to mob attack values. A raid boss will probably have huge attack to compensate for the much higher AC that tanks have, especially in raids where they get maximum support and will be better geared that the typicaly group. This could overpower the low AC and AC-returns that other classes have *including both casters and melee*.

    However many other factors come into play - whether you're a class that uses a shield, or can use staff block AAs, have runes, etc. These all reduce the incoming damage but don't really apply to the melee dps classes. It's my guess as to why casters often end up taking lower damage. We could perhaps change the way the math was done to test this theory - check average numbers of attacks per round, etc?

    It's something we're grasping at though as players don't have the maths nor the attack values to hand. Maybe the correct solution is significantly higher dodge and avoidance to act as a melee equivalent to staff block. IIRC they attempt to add some dual-wielding parry-like bonus, but I'm not sure it worked now.
  20. Dre. Augur

    This is a knee-jerk reaction; a permanent fix to a temporary problem. Adjusting fundamental class modifiers to this degree risks leaving everyone worse off at the end and doesn't even address the problem you're running into.

    If you have a problem with the caster runes, call out the caster runes. If you think the events are poorly tuned or overwhelmingly anti-melee, make your case.

    I mean, a flat 30% boost to hitpoints would fix it too, rite?
    Nedrom likes this.

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