Melee got the Raw end of the deal

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Hurrikane, Dec 16, 2021.

  1. Hurrikane Journeyman

    I was Probably a bit sloppy with my language in the original post as I didn't think anyone would read it. I believe in a game with so many classes there should be very careful consideration in balancing them properly. There should always be situations when Every class is wanted for a specific reason. As of now I feel the classes should be evaluated at a higher level to even things out a bit. Thanks to all who has thoughts to share!
  2. Andarriel Everquest player since 2000

    Possibly melee did get screwed as i tried to make a bloodied compound bow and the combine actually made a non useable ranger bow and i also tried to make a great axe and it made a bardiche.

    Andarriel
  3. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    That's the joke. Melee always get screwed. Except for Berserkers. They need to get vacuumed into Dagnor's Cauldron, never to be seen again.:eek:
  4. Szilent Augur

    their epic dragon is there? Praklion?
  5. Parmalice Journeyman

    I think you make some pretty strong assumptions.

    If a person doesn't pour all their meager XP from killing things while doing the progression into leveling they can get some AAs to at least focus their most important ToL spells right away, and still get enough XP from progression achievements to let Overseer push them to the finish line in a reasonable time. It's not a requirement that people wait till 120 to start getting any AAs. For some classes I'm not even sure it's advisable. If the difference between me sticking with the old spells and toughing it out till 120 or using new spells that, with the first ToL AA focus level, would grant me a very nice boost were just 110 AAs or whatever a given class's focus costs, I'd say go for the focus and enjoy those spells on the way up.

    I play a SK and I use a DOT stack while fighting to add DPS on top of my melee and melee proc DPS. With the five DOTs I commonly use, four of five of which are at rk2 level, and at least the first focus done (2nd level focus for my best two so far) my DOT dps using all ToL stuff went up from mid 50s to around 90k dps or so. Might not sound like much to some, but added to my other forms of DPS it adds up, and a nice 35ish k DPS boost just by upgrading to ToL versions with the AA focuses done is quite nice.

    Perhaps I just don't group with enough truly awesome casters, but I have yet to be out-DPSed as an average over all four ToL missions by any caster. I hope I see it soon too: I won't be jealous, I'll be relieved at not having to carry as much of the DPS load as I do now for my groups. Crap dies slowly enough in this expack that any boost to anyone in the group is more than welcome.
  6. 666DPSweDeliver Augur

    Honestly, if you are out-DPSing casters with a meager 90k DPS, the casters you group with suck pretty bad ... and I mean really, really bad.

    Edited for comprehension, just noticed you meant your 5 DoTs were 90k DPS ... but my post still stands, group geared necro should be wasting you without breaking a sweat.
  7. Cicelee Augur

    I may be wrong, so someone can correct me if so...

    But I believe you have to be level 120 before you can upgrade your focus AA for your TOL spells. Which means yes, you are not using your TOL spells until 120 and you get that first new rank of the focus AA.
  8. Parmalice Journeyman


    Yes, the 5-dot stack was the ~90k dps part of it. I tanked this entire expack from just dinging 116 up to 120, including all the missions, with my 2-handed sword, and add in 2HS melee dps, the 10-minute and 20-minute timer special attacks (Harm Touch etc., melee magnifiers like Visage of Death, etc.), all my melee procs, and whatever ADPS I pick up from others in the group and the average is much higher.

    I just went back and looked at the parse for a mission group I did two nights ago where we blew through all four missions: I averaged 536k dps over all the mobs we killed during those four missions. Typical "let's kill stuff" group DPS average I'll see in the 400-500k dps range averaged over dozens or hundreds of mobs, depending on who I'm grouped with. And that's while tanking the mobs, not standing off to the side just doing DPS.

    I haven't yet seen the group-geared, or even raid-geared necro for that matter who will consistently beat these averages. Yes they'll beat me on a short burn of some boss, but sustained mob after mob after mob over a long period of time with quick pulls? Nope. And our short-term boss burn type DPS ain't too shabby either: did 1.4million dps on a quick Shei Vinitras kill two nights ago. It helps puff up that number if the rest of the group is strong too, since Harm Touch-influenced parses look better the shorter the fight.

    I'm sure if I always grouped with the best of the best of each class this would change, but given who I get to group with I have yet to see the class that can sustain DPS over lots of mobs over an entire evening of killing like the SK can. Lots of people focus on individual mob parses and then orient their thinking around what a class can do once, against a single mob. The parses that really tell me anything and that influence my thinking are the ones where I'll go back and select everything we did that night and parse it as a single fight, because I want to see what I brought to the table sustained over an entire night's efforts, not just against special targets from time to time.
  9. Maedhros High King

    Its amusing that you look at this expansion and see casters finally getting a carrot and can be competitive with melee for the first time since 2015 and it didn't occur to you that exactly what you ask is happening.
    You enjoyed your time as melee being vastly superior to caster dps and now that you are experiencing a more balanced playing field you take that as injustice instead of the long overdue justice that the game has needed.
    Yinla and code-zero like this.
  10. Parmalice Journeyman

    You are in fact wrong.

    I can only speak for the SK class, but we had some focus lines open up to the first ToL level at like 116, 117, etc. Each line and focus level had its own particular level requirement. If the AA focus line is available prior to 120, it may be a good idea to just earn some AAs and open it up, if that ToL spell with the focus represents a decent improvement over the CoV-era spells. I'd predict that if someone has rk3 spells and type 3 augs in their ToV/CoV spell lineup, and was max AA so their AA Focuses were maxed out, going to ToL will represent a loss in performance unless the new ToL AA focuses are brought up to the ToL spell levels. It's going to depend on the particular class and spell.

    I'm really feeling the lack of type 3 augs so far in ToL, but my rk1 and rk2 Shadowknight ToL spells with one or two ToL AA focus levels are still a meaningful and valuable boost over what I could do with ToV/CoV rk3 spells including with type 3 augs, and I've switched my entire lineup. In my case with the 5-dot stack I'll typically lay on mobs outside of raids, the DPS I see just from those DOTs went from ~50k using rk3 CoV/ToV spells with all the type 3 augs to ~90k with 4 out of 5 of those DOTs being rk2, all at least with the first ToL-era AA focus done, and two of my best DOTs at max ToL-era focus. In another couple of days all my DOTs will be both rk2 and at max ToL AA focus level, and it will improve further. The type 3 augs, when they show up, will just improve on that even further, as will getting rk3 versions once the raids start. With type 3 augs and rk3 spells I foresee doing over 100k dps against mobs just from the DOT stack alone, plus the much higher 2HS melee dps and the dps from timed abilities.
  11. 666DPSweDeliver Augur

    Generally speaking, the initial focus AA starts at the level the spell/disc is available, the next rank is normally max level of that expansion.

    So you can buy the focus AA at 116 for a 116 spell, the next rank is most likely level 120.
    Yinla likes this.
  12. Cicelee Augur

    Considering I am mostly solo with a box bard due to playtime... no I am not beaming 6-10 mobs while doing group content. Sorry.

    I
  13. Kazint Augur

    You could magic beam 1 mob with thaum focus and still do more than your RoS spear. Not to mention both of the new rains are great upgrades against single targets. If I were say, a level 118 mage, I'd hit thaum focus, heart of skyfire, and cast the new fire rain, shock of steel, and komatiite bolt over the ToV spear. And with a bard to help you should have plenty of pets to burn with your new of many spell. I really don't see why you have to wait till 120 to get a nice bump.
  14. Sancus Augur

    I agree there are some things you can incorporate prior to max level, but I think this is a bit of a stretch.

    If we're assuming you can use the new Of Many, your rotation is going to be 115 RS -> 117 Of Many -> 115 Chaotic -> <Spell>. If you bought the new Thaumaturge's Focus, and bought the new Shock of Darksteel Focus AA, and bought the new Steel Vengeance AA, and bought the new Malaise AA so that your AA Malo's Magic focus doesn't degrade past 115, and got Rank II of the new Shock spell, you might? realize a very small DPS increase by using Shock of Carbride Steel rather than Komatiite Bolt as that 4th spell for three minutes out of fifteen. All of the Shock-specific AA purchases would then be effectively useless at max level, at least for now. Komatiite Bolt is a CoV spell; it has nothing to do with leveling.

    The fire rain is a more realistic suggestion, but with a Bard (the premise under which you can consistently use Of Many), you'll have 25% additional critical chance (83% total) 2 minutes out of 3, vs its 40% critical cap. Outside of FE/Epic you can see some increase, and against multiple targets you can see a small gain even under FE/Epic by swapping to the new Rain vs the old Spear.

    That said, I suspect most people will prioritize leveling to 120 and buying the AAs that will be most applicable then (Of Many, Capricious Fire, which you can buy at 118, and then general DPS AA). That's not to say that DPS doesn't go up at all while leveling - Of Many is a big boost and the new pet, as you mentioned, also is - but I think the practical gain from other spell lines is marginal (Edit: with the qualifier that if you are using Beams, those are definitely worthwhile).

    Edit 2: Forgot the Focus on Heart of Skyfire is level capped at 115, and you can't purchase an upgrade until 120. That's also a pretty big factor in favor of using old spells. The new Quick Time (assuming group with Bard) is also capped at 115 until you buy the new rank that requires level 120.
    Shindius and Piemastaj like this.
  15. Cicelee Augur

    So I log into the game and looked at my focus AA....

    And to my complete surprise, Of Many focus is for level 117. Not the 120 I thought.

    So I was 100 percent wrong. I don't know if it was always like that or if it got changed for TOL, but all along I thought it was max level of the expansion. I stand corrected, and am proof you do learn something new every day!
  16. Szilent Augur

    folks beta testing work with devs to make focus AAs match the spells' levels

    more beta participants (tends to) make things make more sense like that :)
    Yinla likes this.
  17. Zolav Augur

    Meh its not that bad.. get out there a do your job and who-ever tops the parse... tops the parse.

    FYI... it took me a bit to get to this attitude but you, me, everyone needs to not forget... its a team effort. DPS away my caster homies with your sexy upgrades.. just know I ain't going down without a fight :)
    Ashigaru and Yinla like this.
  18. Micker Augur

    All I see is a percentage increase across the board with all spells/weapons/aa, like any other expansion. I don't see there being any difference at 120 with the right AAs compared to at 115, with power level/dps between classes. Nothing new for anyone, nothing has changed, it's the exact same, with slightly larger numbers for everyone.
  19. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor


    Why can't the Spell and AA devs communicate? You're essentially admitting without players these two wouldn't communicate.
  20. Szilent Augur

    I can't, and didn't, speak to their internal communication at all. What I said is that players expressing a preference for these arbitrary symmetries influences those developers to put them in the game.