Massive Ban Hammer Mega Discussion

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Dartmon65, Jul 1, 2022.

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  1. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    Since most of us are adults, we've all experienced deals where relatively small amounts of cash (such as with security deposits or other contractual agreements) end up in really unnecessary - and sometimes, nasty - disputes.

    Do you expect people to act any differently if their automation-RMT scheme is threatened?

    It's not mafia (though, they may be inspired by some tactics). It's straight up self-interested people being self-interested people.

    SOE immediately deleted cheat-related threads since there was no dispute to be had.
  2. Cicelee Augur

    I went to the candy store and stole some candy in January.

    I went to the candy store and stole some candy in February.

    I went to the candy store intending to steal some candy in March. I got caught, and they slapped me on the wrist and told me not to steal. I saw the light, and I promised not to steal anymore candy from the store.

    I went to the candy store in April, May and June and bought candy with money and did everything the right way.

    I went to the candy store in July, intending to buy candy with money. Instead I got slapped on the wrist and was told not to steal candy from the store.

    Like you, I am all for punishing and banning cheaters from the game. But if someone got caught cheating, they got punished, they cleaned up their act and are no longer cheating, then (if valid and true) they should not repeatedly be retroactively punished for past transgressions if they have already been punished for them.
  3. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    What is the incentive to stop cheating before you get punished if you know that a single punishment is going to wipe the slate clean? They would be well within their rights to punish you for January and February as well if they chose to do so. Just because you are not breaking any rules at the moment doesn't mean you should get off the hook for past actions.
  4. Janakin Augur

    It should be like crime in real life. It does not wipe the slate clean but you have a record.

    If you are using monk track for years and think it is okay and then get a 7-day suspension for it. You know continuing to use it could result in future actions such as a suspension that would be 14 days long and then after a 3rd offense, perhaps a ban.

    So, you stop using monk tracking after your 7-day punishment, however 2 months later you get a new 14-day suspension for using monk tracking from a previous incident in their records. From that it might be concluded that, even though you stopped using monk tracking, you will be punished again for past usage. People might decide from such that they should just take up monk tracking, regardless of any consequences, once again.

    Imagine if someone was arrested on 22 counts of illegal activity and was sentenced to 7 years in prison. Once they got out, they changed their life around and stayed on the straight and narrow. 2 months after getting out, the police come to them and say there was 1 additional charge they overlooked on his original arrest related to his previous life of crime. Person is arrested and this time sentenced to 14 years in prison. Do you think that when he gets out, he won't be jaded by the justice system and be more likely to return to his life of crime? One would hope not, but me, personally, would feel that he was dealt with unfairly.

    That said, anyone can come to these forums and gripe that they have been dealt with unfairly and maybe they are lying or maybe they are telling the truth. Only they really know.
  5. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    And in real life if you get punished for shoplifting in March they can and will still punish you for shop lifting in January and February if they have the evidence to do so. In fact it is more likely to cause multiple punishments if they have the evidence to do so.

    And lets be honest here in the shoplifting example you would have been banned from the store after you got caught so what you do after wouldn't really matter.
  6. Janakin Augur

    True. It is their store/movie theatre for sure. They can under new ownership change how it is ran. Maybe in the past they appeared to allow people to sneak outside food into their theatre by perhaps looking the other way, but now have an attendant walking through the movies and kicking people out that have food and no receipt of it being purchased.

    As far as rules go, isn't playing someone else's account is against their rules right? Even if that person who owns the account dies and a friend just plays it in their memory? If so, I imagine some might think they should go back and ban all accounts that have been played from multi IP addresses just to be safe and catch those who are breaking that rule. They can petition on another account to try and prove their innocence but they have to address each and every time they logged in on a different IP. Oh and if you have done it more than 3 times in the past, just ban them.

    I know I am exaggerating here, but I do not feel that there should be hard and fast rules to this, and I also feel that there are different degrees to when and how things should be punished. Should a person who misses a GM afk /say be punished the same as a person running 24-7 for months on end?
  7. Cicelee Augur

    I mean I am no internet lawyer (or RL lawyer), but I would think that the charge in March would encompass the transgressions that also took place in January and February too. It is why when you see someone go to court they are going to court once for 37 parking tickets, not going to court 37 times for each individual parking ticket.

    There should be a reset upon issuing the first suspension to an account. OK we at DPG or DBG or whatever caught you using third party software. While your file will show that you used this on xyz dates in the past, you as an account holder should have an opportunity to do good. If you no longer cheat, you should be allowed to not play in fear over another suspension for what you did years ago. You messed up, you got caught, you learned your lesson and have proven that you are on the straight and narrow.

    And if after that first suspension you decide to continue to cheat? Obviously second suspension and subsequent ban on the third. But I disagree handing out suspensions for past wrongs after you already handed out a suspension for said past wrong and have been a good soldier since the first...
  8. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    Why would it? The punishment would only include things listed in the charge and there is no reason to think that it covers all acts. It doesn't matter how many times you have done something but how many instances the punishment is covering. As for parking tickets they likely will be going to court multiple times as they are scheduled based on each event and you can't just bring in a bunch of other tickets when going in about a single ticket.
  9. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    There appears to be a decent amount of people who are under the impression that you can cheat as much as you want until you get punished and that will clear out all other actions. All that does is encourage people to keep cheating until they get punished. We should be hoping that people are encouraged to never cheat in the first place or stop right away because of the potential punishments that will happen if they keep cheating even if they have not yet been punished.
  10. MacDubh TABLES!!!


    What happens if you had been cheating until just a few days ago when you came to these forums and learned the way that punishment works as laid out in Waring v. McMarrin and then stopped using 3rd party programs. You have never been punished before, and you quit as a result of knowing the type of punishment you could receive, but then 2 weeks down the road you get a 7 day suspension for cheating as you had testing out this third party program your friend told you about but were not aware it was illegal. Then you think "oh I deserved this as I should have known better". You wait your 7 day suspension to play again for a month then are hit with a 14 day suspension for cheating even though you quit prior to your first punishment. After your 14 days punishment is complete you play for another month cheat free and finally receive the third strike permaban.

    Is this the way it is intended? I am just trying to understand how this all works, I am not very smart.
    TheChosenOne and Wildmandaniel like this.
  11. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    The punishments you would get would depend on what Daybreak decides to do. Your example has them knowingly cheating and they should expect to get punished for that if they get caught. It isn't Daybreaks fault if the cheater thinks a single punishment is enough to cancel all other offenses.
  12. Wildmandaniel New Member

    If you want to encourage people to stop cheating, the current system is the worst way to do it. As it stands now if you have ever loaded *programs* on your pc, you may as well keep using until you are banned.

    If you have not been punished and stopped today, you could still get hit with strike ms 1, 2 and 3 from usage in the past. If you got a 1 week suspension and stopped, same story. Where is the incentive to ever stop in the current system?
  13. MacDubh TABLES!!!


    I apologize if my post wasn't clear, but the example was meant to portray a person who did not know they were cheating until reading the recent posts on these forums. Say someone who goes to a certain EQ website that contains leveling strats and falls down a slippery slope of third party software being led to believe it is acceptable.
  14. FranktheBank Augur

    Waring, stop repeating the same thing over and over and going "I dont know why you all expect anything else"

    Because the "anything else" makes more sense, thats why. You seem to be hung up on the "cheat until punished" bit, and it literally doesnt matter.

    If someone cheats, get punished, stops cheating and continues playing for months/years, that is a win for the game.
  15. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    It all depends on what DBG's goal is.
    Do they want to scare away cheaters for good by punishing them for an indefinite and unpredictable amount of time, until they find another game?
    Or do they want to give the cheaters a chance to redeem themselves and give them another chance to enjoy the game, by playing legit in the future?

    I think option 2 is best for the game in the long term. But that is just my opinion.
  16. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    If you want to encourage people to keep cheating until they get caught letting a single punishment wipe the slate clean is the perfect way. No matter how you look at it the best way to encourage people to not cheat is to make the results of cheating painful. If they are going to keep cheating because they get punished multiple times for cheating multiple times chances are they would still cheat even if there was only a single punishment.
  17. MacDubh TABLES!!!

    Okay I think I may have finally got it.

    So if you had illegally tinted windows on your car for a year and you get pulled over by the police and fined for it. You get the tint removed, but then later on you receive a speeding violation in the mail from a camera speed trap which was from the same day you got pulled over for the tint and they noted that you had illegally tinted windows and charged you with both a speeding ticket and for having illegally tinted windows.

    Both fines for the window tint are valid?
  18. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    And that doesn't really matter, breaking the rules is breaking the rules regardless of knowing or not. And as most of the programs in question give you the ability to do things in game that are not possible otherwise it is a stretch to say that they don't know that they are cheating.
  19. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    How many silly scenarios can you come up with to try and justify the claim that a single punishment should wipe out all other occurrences of cheating?
  20. Wildmandaniel New Member

    I don’t know that this is true. There are a lot of people that use automation software to box a group, but only raid with 1 toon without tools. Especially those on live who have 20+ years invested into the same toon. In those cases a single punishment along with the threat of escalating actions if they continue using software is probably enough to get them to stop all together.
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