Mark spells

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by fransisco, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Chaosflux Augur

    Please play a paladin with a beast lord, ranger, shaman or any other high aggro class and report your findings.
  2. Seldom Augur

    Chaos, are you sure the hate mod on the Valiant heal applies to all mobs on hate list? I recall multiple folks saying that when we very first got the line back in CoTF. I conducted a quick test and it definitely didn't seem to be true back then
    Chaosflux likes this.
  3. fransisco Augur

    AE agro clickies?
  4. Chaosflux Augur

    In TDS I did a test, around the time they fixed crushes and it seemed to be working. However, based on the fact 1 ability we have is currently acting anomolously, I'll verify what I remember this weekend when I test the other one.
    Seldom likes this.
  5. Chaosflux Augur

    Magma tic deflector
    The one from the ancients in,EOK
    OMM blades topper
    Classic blades topper
    The crafted ring from TDS or COTF
    Gnomish fireworks

    The single target list is longer I'll have to think
  6. p2aa Augur

    Paladins in my guild have np to keep aggro of any DPS class. As I said it, it requires using the right spells. If they need to be in aggro mode, they spam the spells Crush of the Darkened Sea (17 472 hate every 12 sec), Valiant Defense (17 241 hate every 6 sec, base hate + heal hate combined), Crush of Povar (13 596 hate every 24 sec) Ardent Force (7 903 hate every 12 sec), and Force of Disruption AA (15 000 hate every 9 sec).
  7. Chaosflux Augur

    First I don't know what guild your in or the relative quality of your dps players, so it's possible that first statement is meaningless. To deny that their is a massive gap in aggro generation between the 3 tanks with a dismissive argument with no data (ie dps parses) to support it does nothing.

    Second do you really want to lay the cards on the table and dynamically compare total gate generated?

    If not, I'd probably stop right there, and walk away from a conversation that has nothing to do with your class. Before you showed up it was just afew paladins talking shop.

    But if you want to go down this road, I'll ride along.
  8. fransisco Augur

    I know its unpopular, but I've been having luck using impose for honor. We pull three things, the shaman and necro wanna spread dots around. I seem to have better luck tagging the 2 I'm not focusing on with impose. Last time we played for a couple hours, agro worked way better.
  9. Brohg Augur

    Nah that's a great use for it. If the dot's going to get its full run since the mobs aren't the primary target, and you have the extra spell gem due to mana issues anyhow? Perfect spot for Impose. Also great pulling spell, and kiting spell, due to being instant. It's not popular because the typical problem area is "immediate impact" and "impact per spell gem", where Impose is beaten by many (nearly every) spell. Circling back to the main topic, actually, one of the few spells lower impact is the Mark line :p
  10. Chaosflux Augur

    Since they target capped beacon (it's 8 now), impose is useful at times.

    Where else it is useful is the situation Brohg touched on, I'll use it if I am boxing, because I have a beastlord, so if I'll preload this on the next target (which I've already dotted with the beast with toggle targetting) so I don't lose aggro on the. Whole pack.

    It's also marginally useful in certain raid circumstances where you HAVE to create X amount of aggro and maintain a consistent amount of aggro whilst wasting cast opportunities on heals.

    Now the reasons most do not prefer it, is because it does a single job, and most spells do multiple, the other thing is its not very frontloaded, so once you reach a certain threshold of mob kill speed, it can be detrimental to your overall aggro to use.

    In order for it to be effective you want atleast 3 ticks of it being on a mob, and it MUST be more imperative to your aggro maintaining then simply dropping another nuke.

    So if the situation fits those parameters (which doesn't happen much for some people depending on other factors) it can be an ok spell.

    I mean I still hate it, but there are more situations it can be useful in then there used to be because of DPS aggro generation in relation to our own as the current state of the game is.
  11. Xanathol Augur

    Terror of Narus Rk. III - 13410, 0, 6
    Terror of Poira Rk. III - 11310, 0, 6
    Hate's Attraction XXIII - 18000, 0, 120

    Ignoring that a pally can get VoT from an SK, SKs can mod their's to:
    Terror of Narus Rk. III - 16763, 0, 6
    Terror of Poira Rk. III - 14138, 0, 6
    Hate's Attraction XXIII - 22500, 0, 120

    Crush of Povar Rk. III - 13596, 0.5, 24
    Crush of the Darkened Sea Rk. III - 17472, 0.5, 12
    Valiant Defense Rk. III - 10117, 0.5, 6
    Ardent Force Rk. III - 7903, 1, 12
    Force of Disruption XV - 15000, 0.1, 9

    w/ Hate's Attraction (2 min cool down)
    @ 1 sec, SK 39263, Pally 32472
    @ 3 sec, SK 53401, Pally 46068
    @ 5 sec, SK 53401, Pally 59664
    @ 7 sec, SK 70164, Pally 69781
    @ 9 sec, SK 84302, Pally 77684
    @ 11 sec, SK 84302, Pally 92684
    ...

    w/o Hate's Attraction (2 min cool down)
    @ 1 sec, SK 16763, Pally 32472
    @ 3 sec, SK 30901, Pally 46068
    @ 5 sec, SK 30901, Pally 59664
    @ 7 sec, SK 47664, Pally 69781
    @ 9 sec, SK 61802, Pally 77684
    @ 11 sec, SK 61802, Pally 92684
    ...

    If SK aggro is fine at this point, Paladin's certainly is too.
  12. Seldom Augur

    Terribad numbers to list to an epic extent Xanathol. AE aggro, plays into single target aggro and greatly helps it. SK's have an extreme AE aggro advantage over Paladins(so much so, that they need to turn it "off" in numerous situations). Wars are at same status as SK's. Posting that level of silliness yet again shows the classic Xanathol/P2aa style agendas. Thanks for the giggles. When I play my Shadowknight, I use terrors in NO situation whatsoever, under no circumstance, in group game. That's while playing with some of the very best dps in all game. They still don't nearly touch me on aggro meter
  13. Chaosflux Augur

    Thrown in harmonious procs too or its not a full picture

    9336 hate for the paladin/proc
    35,000 hate per proc for the SK
    26,665 hate per proc for the warrior

    Figuring equal mitigation we need equal healing, you decide how many procs each class gets, then tell me it's the same hate at the end

    Also you are completely ignoring spear, deflection, and any lifetaps, but you are using valiant to factor in for the paladins hate. I'll assume to intentionally slant the numbers in favor of the paladin, by a sin of omission.

    In all fairness Valiant is 17311 hate not 10k, so I'll give you that.

    Also if you want to do this we should list all AE hate as it can be applied in single target situations (especially in the group game)
  14. Xanathol Augur

    Not surprisingly, you are creating a false argument. The statement was "paladins need a single target aggro boost" which is completely untrue. If you ever raid as an SK, you'll find many situations where ae aggro - especially harmonious - cannot / should not be used. In those situations, SKs do use terrors and it is more than enough to keep aggro off any dps. Since paladins can generate more hate than SKs in such manner, your argument is proven false.
  15. Xanathol Augur

    Harmonious doesn't matter. Your argument was "paladin single target aggro was too low". Given that an SK can easily keep aggro off of dps with the spells I listed and paladins can generate more aggro than that SK lineup, it is a false statement that paladins cannot keep aggro off of dps.

    Lifetaps are useless for aggro purposes, fyi.

    If you want to argue that paladin ae aggro is too low, ok, but single target is certainly not; it is higher than it has ever been.
  16. Chaosflux Augur

    Lifetaps generate 1 hate per base damage, just like any other nuke, they are not "useless", if you aren't using them at all maybe you'd have a point.

    Harmonious certainly is a part of the equation because it does exist.

    You completely ignored half your tool set in your comparison.

    Though I wasn't expecting honest and transparent discourse with you, so I am not surprised.
  17. p2aa Augur

    I'm in a high end raiding guild, so there is a certain DPS quality.
    The real question is can you hold aggro over DPS ? The answer is yes, regarding single target aggro.
    Use the highest aggro pallies spells and you will do fine.
  18. p2aa Augur

    Your reasoning of SK / War AE aggro is better than paladins, so give paladins better single target aggro is not working. If you look at recent devs decisions regarding tanks, you will see that they tend to make them more and more interchangeable. Years ago, knights had better aggro than warriors, but less mitigation. Now, warrior aggro has increased, and knight mitigation has increased. You will have more luck asking to increase your AE aggro, and also you will have more credibility, because trying to fool devs by saying paladin single target aggro sucks won't work.
    Xanathol likes this.
  19. Seldom Augur

    Reading comprehension children. I clearly stated, Paladins are not intended to have stellar AE aggro and with that being the case, we clearly need to return to having stellar single target aggro(this has nothing to do with what I want, this was stated by Devs. It's common sense to grasp better AE would be preferable). AE aggro helps single target aggro. Single target aggro has the "potential" to help ae aggro, none of this is rocket science. Xanathol, I raid on my SK, and not on pickup raids as you do. This thread is about a group paladin FYI. Pertaining to raiding on a Shadowknight, I've hit Dichotomic, forceful rejuvenation and Dichotomic again. This alone can lock down after over a raid comfortably as you start rotation on other things. Do you realize how much aggro that is and that a paladin can't do that with ease? Or harmtouch and all the other many plethora of combos an SK has to lock down aggro extremely comfortably lmao. If you actually played or raided on either a SK/Paladin and were "good" with no agenda, you'd realize these things. All good though, I'm sure some YouTube videos can be made and posted on main forums of what SK/WAR aggro looks like atm just getting healed. Wouldn't be more wise to band together and clearly admit where other classes need assistance instead of attempting to needlessly step on toes SMH.
  20. Xanathol Augur

    Check those reuse timers... Gotta give you props though - you never feel any shame.

    Bottomline, if you are having aggro problems, that is a "you" issue, not a class one.