Making Progression Not Required On Release Then REQUIRING It?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by HeatherPurrs, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. Sissruukk Augur

    Ahh, ok, thank you for the clarification.
  2. Sheex Augur

    Looks like they’re pulling a SuperNanny, which would explain the deep states of mental psychosis.


    It’s from hell!?
    Belexes and Bahdah like this.
  3. Bahdah Augur

    I typed eating poop in google.........
  4. Bobsmith Augur

    Ros raids do have backflags, at least the t1 ones do
    Zhaunil_AB likes this.
  5. Reval Augur

    So just to summarize the points I've seen today...

    Anti flagging points (points made in understanding of people that will actually be affected by the flagging):

    1) It's going to take raids that aren't there about 6 weeks to flag people. Some say more because the guilds that aren't "at the top" have players that don't raid every single week, so it may take them 8 weeks or more. This will cause their members to be more likely to leave for other guilds which then could literally make it an endless treadmill of never getting there even though you put in the work week after week after week after week after week after week after week.... I can see why they're complaining. It would be a better game if people in this situation didn't have to go through that.

    2) If a person is in a guild with their friends that doesn't have time or ability to do the group progression, and I know most people have done it but I have seen people in this situation, their two options are to either pay people rl money to do the progression (i.e. you are paying to play the game to then pay to have someone else play the game for you so that you can then finally play the game), or just literally leave your friends to join a guild that can.... I gotta say again I can easily see why they're complaining. The other side says stuff like "you won't really *need* it to enjoy the game, but get real. At some point this will adversely affect them. They'll be on when their friends aren't around and try to get a group. The people that want another will be in a zone with kar'zok, and if those guys know they don't have the blocker, they won't get in the group. What's your next line of reasoning? That they should lie? Go back and double down on that they should do the progression? Should they pay rl money for it? It would be a better game if people in this situation did not have to do any of those options.

    Pro flagging points (points made by people who are not affected by the problem in any significant way, or may even benefit from it):

    1) I did it, so can you (which quickly turns into a recruitment thread). This lacks validity. The problem is what you would really have to say here is "My raid did it, so can yours", and in many cases you know that's not true. Like it's literally not even close to true for some of these guys. But you know what? They were probably enjoying themselves enough that getting 2-3 new raids an expac that they could do was enough to hold them together as they continually lose people, and become the basis for your guilds to survive. You're eating your own tail here.

    2) I can do the group progression in 14 hours. It's easy and fun. This also lacks validity. I personally enjoyed doing the whole thing solo, but I've seen people that couldn't even get close to doing that. Look at the difference between some guy with a great box crew, and then a person who's only account's best character is a 105 non raid geared cleric with 15000 aa. Now go 6 months out, to where people aren't doing EoK progression at all. Let me know how you think that cleric's going to do soloing this progression. I'll give you that you'll probably get like 2% of people that will struggle with it that are sour apples that will then enjoy it, but most people that would enjoy it would have gone back to do it anyways so that point is pretty damn moot. The fact of the matter is that this will basically lock people out of playing the game at worst, and will do absolutely nothing at best.

    3) This will make them all better players. In your dreams man. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Which is it gonna be? They're gonna pay for progression, or just not do it and try to group anyways, or a group can drag these guys through it for whatever reason, or they'll all become better players. Here's how people actually become better players: they sit in the guild hall and learn what their abilities do and make sure they have all of their spells /discs and figure out how to make a decent set of hotkeys/mash keys and learn all of the intrinsic in game mechanics that apply to their class.

    None of that requires this level of flagging into EoK to play RoS. I mean maybe they could make missions where you have to cast a certain spell x times, and all similar spells are locked out so that people actually use their abilities? But really what getting good takes and what people will do to get through these missions are two totally different things.

    4) implications that people that are against the flagging eat poop meant to screw with someone on the other side of the debate since if you can't win a point, just insult the other side until they give up. Man that post I had that got deleted was 100% correct. You couldn't get more correct. Unbelievable. I must be the oracle. Meanwhile I look through this thread and see so many people on the wrong side of this.

    Don't bother with the snarky replies. I probably won't see anything on this for a week or two. Just glad to know I was 100% right instead of a measly 99% right.
  6. Sissruukk Augur

    If you would have kept up, you would know that Millianna is anti-flagging, and is the one that suggested that the "fan-boys" of progression are the ones that eat poop. No snark, just fact.
    Thrillho likes this.
  7. Reval Augur

    I've seen some of your earlier posts, and you seem like a good guy in them. You say you are going back helping people get through with progression that you were helped with. That's decent man. It really is. I applaud you for that.

    Unfortunately, I think similar to myself, the more you post, the more you sort of turn off that part of the human mind that fosters understanding, and it goes into more of a reinforcement of the angle you've already arrived at. My guess is that you probably had a sane view at first, and then jumped on this bandwagon, stepped on someone toes, they said something that hooked you in because of course they were offended by it, and now you're trying to back something that for that person you might agree with, but in the whole of the game you would genuinely not endorse.

    Spend some more time contemplating and don't get frustrated with people that have a different view than you. I'm guilty of the same thing, and what you just posted is a fair example. I only see what Millianna said as saying "stop trying to lie to me about my situation, which I understand better than you do." When people that aren't having any problem will keep trying to say that Millianna is wrong for what now? Is it 19 pages in here? 20? Even Ghandi would be saying stuff like that, and I forgive the people on the other side that have done it. So how does what she said not equal what I think it means? I've read most of this post.

    The area where I think you sort of 'turned' was this:

    Segap's post was great, and really covered things well from this perspective. I hope you reread it without the malicious intention of tearing it down. Really think about it from the other perspective. Another great person to look at if you're stuck on that "everyone asking for it wants a handout" is Axxius, he's in Triton. He's not in need here, much like myself he's posting for the path that he thinks is better for the game. There's also Sandaormo who I'm sure is doing well but has politely spoke in favor of removing the flagging that he thinks may hurt the game.

    I'd love to know how these requirements help the game from someone who has a reason they don't feel like a used car salesman halfway through typing out. I really have looked hard for a genuine reason that is good and takes into consideration the enjoyment, the wellbeing, what really matters for the players that removing these blocks might help. If you have one that respects them, and I mean genuinely, not like when your boss wants you to work sunday but wants to feel like he's smooth about it as he is asking you to work sunday, but like a real down to earth understandable reason that wouldn't fire off the B.S. detectors that I'm sure Millianna has gone through 5 of by this point. If you have one, please, say it respectfully. I genuinely completely 100% cannot find any reason to do what has been done here. Let those guys have fun. This is a video game.

    What gets me is, I can't see a perspective where I'm doing great in the game and I want to be in favor of stepping on the little guy. It doesn't help anyone. Why are you in favor of this stance (or maybe I misread somehow and you aren't)? Is it just someone on the forums irritated you and now you want to spite them? Is there some honest reason that you can say easily that describes why you are in favor of what appears to be your side of the fence?
  8. Bobsmith Augur

    None of the progression is required. And now you don't need t3 eok flags for t1 ros raids. Please do stop with this endless multi-thread.
    Thrillho likes this.
  9. Reval Augur

    So people in guilds that do not have t3 flags now can do t1 ros raids? Or do you mean that t1 raids drop back flags upon completion? Honest question.
  10. Bobsmith Augur

    Both, backflags drop in chest and notice the seal strike out.
    Yinla and Zhaunil_AB like this.
  11. Bobsmith Augur

    But btw eotd1 would be highly recommended for the second t1 fight ...ijs
  12. Reval Augur

  13. Bahdah Augur

    Now for the its too hard for us thread?
    Sheex, Thrillho, Maedhros and 3 others like this.
  14. Reval Augur

    I'd rather they add in super hard time trials with decent rewards to raids. Maybe to group missions too, but hard enough that you can't just drag someone through it if it's group stuff. You can make content for both sides without locking anyone out of the game.
  15. TheStugots Elder

    Can't wait /popcorn
    Bobsmith and Cicelee like this.
  16. Bobsmith Augur

    Is that not what it was? 0.o
  17. Xnao Augur

    I have an innovative idea.

    Preempt the "it's too hard for us" thread with a "it's too easy for us" thread.

    We haven't had one of those. Would be a nice change of pace and interesting.
  18. Cavall Journeyman

    Well they really are relatively easy. T1 raids could stand to be made a touch harder.
    Brohg and Bobsmith like this.
  19. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    That is a mitigation vehicle, not a solution.
    But this
    Glad to see this, i really am (it's new as a "fact" for me, but i asked for this so i am happy) - because that "solves" at least some of the concerns we had (for ourselves and others who are already "done" in EoK) when it comes to the raids/backflagging issue.

    Now, if they'd also add in some way to attain essence1 into the "normal" RoS progression (perhaps along the line i posted here), then that would shut this (sadly quite deteriorated) "discussion" here for good as well.
  20. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    Thanks much for quoting this, even though it'd have more relevance in the raid-oriented thread.
    Since that change seems to have come last TUE and without a dev-comment, it has indeed escaped my notice - all the more pleasant to see it happened!
    Two down, one to go!

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